Irish Taxi Forum
Public Area => Taxi Talk => Topic started by: Rat Catcher on November 10, 2019, 06:19:27 pm
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https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2019/1109/1089737-deciding-between-diesel-and-hybrid-some-surprising-results/ (https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2019/1109/1089737-deciding-between-diesel-and-hybrid-some-surprising-results/)
Deciding between diesel and hybrid - some surprising results.
Updated / Sunday, 10 Nov 2019 10:53
By Donal Byrne
Motoring Editor
Toyota has ditched diesel but Skoda says four out five bigger saloon car buyers still want diesel. We compare Toyota's hybrid Camry with Skoda's new Superb.
It's the new world versus the new when it comes looking at how Toyota's bigger Camry saloon compares with Skoda's latest version of the Superb. Both are big cars and both have established a good reputation on the market. In broad terms they offer essentially the same thing - a bigger profile, space and comfort for a long journey. Yet under the bonnet they could not be more different. The Toyota runs on a 2.5 petrol engine combined with a non-plug in battery, while the Superb runs on a well-proven diesel engine that has already powered a range of cars across the Volkswagen family range. So, partial electric motoring pits itself against a full fossil-fuelled oil burner.
Toyota has invested hugely in hybrid technology (although next year it will move further into an all-electric range), insisting that its cars are better for the environment and meet a growing demand for cleaner and more fuel-efficient engines.
Skoda defends the cleanliness of its newer diesels.
Skoda, like other manufacturers, insists that its current diesel engines are among the cleanest ever produced and that four out of five buyers of the Superb want diesel. It's a fairly straightforward logic for those who do big mileage (diesel was never meant for cities or low mileage in the first place) and want that mileage to be driven as economically as possible.
So, we decided to put both cars to the test to compare how efficient and economical they were. We picked the exact same routes of almost 500 kilometres, with city driving mixed with longer motorway runs. Some of the results were surprising. Given the face that the Camry falls back on a 2.5 litre petrol engine and that the Superb has always returned excellent diesel economy, the gap in terms of performance and economy was much narrower than I had expected it might be.
The available range on the Camry adjusted upwards as the electricity use increased.
At the start of the journey, the Camry had a full tank and an available range of 660 kilometres, according to the on-board computer. After 550 kilometres it still had a 221 suggested available range, meaning that once the car was up and running in mixed driving conditions its range increased (probably because of smooth motorway cruising) to 771. You also take into account that the car is generating and using its own electricity that kicks in and out imperceptibly, thus replacing fuel consumption with electricity consumption. The average fuel consumption was 6.1 litres of petrol per 100 kilometres (46.3 miles per gallon in old money).
The Skoda (an estate version but very similiar in consumption to the figures I've recorded from saloon versions) had an indicated range of over 900 kilometres. After 500 kilometres in the same conditions as the Camry, the fuel consumption average was 5.8 litres of diesel per 100 kilometres (or 48.7 miles per gallon).
This indicates a differential between the two cars of just 2.4 litres of fuel per 100 kilometres. Now that did surprise me. I had expected a greater differential between the two, especially given the long motorway stretches involved.
In cost terms, the journeys were not that different either, even allowing for the difference in price between petrol and diesel. Based on last month's average pump prices (€1.43 for petrol and €1.33 for diesel), the cost of the journey per 100 kilometres for the Camry was €8.72 and €7.71 for the diesel.
So, you can make up your own mind as to whether a hybrid option might be a better alternative to a traditional diesel one, even on longer journeys.
A few observations on both cars:
The new Superb is not an all-new car. It's a face-lifted version and is'nt a car noted for its personality or styling. Its big strengths are great interior space, probably the best in class, and a huge boot that makes it a hit with tazi drivers all over the country. The saloon version has 625 litres of boot space and the estate has 600 - both enough to take everything, including the kitchen sink.
The Sportline version, which most buyers opt for, has Alcantara leather, predictive cruise control and matrix LED lights front and back. Unlike the Toyota, it has an excellent infotainment screen - functional, clear and easy to use. It's a model for other manufacturers and has distinguished many VW family cars from their competitors because of its user-friendliness and ability to lessen distraction for the driver.
Toyota's on the other hand is a major disappointment and an irritant. It is too small, the graphcs are crowded on top of each other and its fiddly to use.
I've criticised the Lexus system before and now I think Toyota should have a re-think on something that is funadamentally flawed.
However, the camry is the more appealing of the two cars. It has a bit more emotional appeal in its design and it was a good deal more comfortable and less utilitarian in its interior finish than the Skoda. Ultimately though, I found the hybrid contribution more suited to today's world than the older and recently discredited diesel option - notwithstanding the fact that newer diesels now are cleaner.
The Camry has leather seats, automatic high beam adjustment, adaptive cruise control and lane departure alert with steering control. Radar sensors and cameras help detect potential collisions and monitor road signs.
It also has LED lights, keyless entry, rear privacy glass, power retractable heated door mirrors, rear view camera, dual climate control and 3 years servicing.
Despite the presence of a battery, the Camry boot has suffered either and comfortably passes the set of golf clubs test.
Both cars run on automatic gearboxes and run pretty smoothly in urban and motorway environments.
The Camry starts at €39,750 and the Superb starts at €30,750.
The Skoda therefore wins on the price front - the Camry on that of the overall experience.
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My next car be a Prius a jap one
5000 hungry indians/Pakistani a cant be wrong
Watch what they drive they not stupid with the pennys
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The Camry starts at €39,750 and the Superb starts at €30,750.
€9k difference.
In cost terms,...the cost of the journey per 100 kilometres for the Camry was €8.72 and €7.71 for the diesel.
The Skoda is €1 cheaper/100km. Over 10k/km, that's €1,000.
- The new Superb is not an all-new car. It's a face-lifted version and is'nt a car noted for its personality or styling.
- The Camry has leather seats, automatic high beam adjustment, adaptive cruise control and lane departure alert with steering control. Radar sensors and cameras help detect potential collisions and monitor road signs. It also has LED lights, keyless entry, rear privacy glass, power retractable heated door mirrors, rear view camera, dual climate control and 3 years servicing.
Summerhill Spares would be handy for replacement parts for the Skoda. Not so for the Camry. How much are those LED lights to replace?
If you're running a business trying to minimise your costs, sounds like the Superb might be a better bet? If you were to buy new...
No mention of the possible congestion & other charges against diesels. Some UK/EU countries are planning to ban diesels from their city centres. No sure if taxis are included in those bans?
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Not slagging your Skodas but the Camry would be more likely to last the full ten years IMO without serious maintenance.
Chap has a two year old Octy on the green and he's on his second auto gearbox and most likely a third next year.Some problem with the clutch mechanism on the petrol version.Sounds poxy.Although 10k extra for a Camry is also poxy.
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The Known Knowns and the Unknown Knowns .The likes of the Green Party who would Gobble a Donkey for a Ministers Office might decide to ban Diesels in Cities .Diesels are essential in the country for Torque when towing Pigs to Market or to Green Party Partys but not in Cities .I bought a Part Worn Diesel .I would not invest in a New Diesel Car or Van with any confidence you will get 9 years out of it .I would go Hybrid if buying new .
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Hybrids are cheaper to run around cities, diesels cheaper on the open road. I can't complain as far as service/maintenance costs go with my last Skoda - 2009 manual MKII diesel Octavia bought in 2014 - @ €2,800 over 5 years including one replacement clutch/flywheel @ €600 (supplied and fitted) and one replacement timing belt @ €395 (main dealer supplied and fitted). In fact it's still going strong under Mrs. Catcher's heavy footed treatment with only one routine servicie since it retired from the taxi fleet at the beginning of this year. I've driven less than 30,000 kilos in it's replacement - 2016 auto MKIII diesel Octavia - and spent €204 on maintenance without any big ticket items as follows:
23/01/2019 Floor Mats 20.00 Halfords/Tesco
01/02/2019 Screenwash 3.50 Tesco
11/03/2019 Oil (for topup) & camera 45.00 Micks
28/03/2019 119,197 Brake Fluid replaced 12.00 Euro Car Parts
28/03/2019 119,197 FR PS Door Handle oiled (3 in 1) 3.00 Euro Car Parts
29/07/2019 129,302 Oil 28.00 Micks
29/07/2019 129,302 Oil Filter & Bung 11.00 Annesley Williams
29/07/2019 129,302 Fuel Filter 39.00 Annesley Williams
29/07/2019 129,302 Pollen Filter (Charcoal) 10.00 Euro Car Parts
29/07/2019 129,302 RR Brake Pads (2/3) 14.00 Euro Car Parts
02/08/2019 Screenwash 3.50 Tesco
29/10/2019 Puncture RR DS 10.00 Collin
29/10/2019 Key Batteries 5.00 Tesco
I did seriously consider a hybrid but ended up being put off by the extra purchase cost, pricey batteries, extra "engine" and technology that I don't understand... although I guess I'd get to grips with that if required. I'll probably go the Prius route next time, getting an auto Octavia is my step in the "right" direction!
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Assuming you have no other problems the Flywheel and Timing belts won't be part of your list with the Toyota hybrid.
Just oil and filters, and plugs and clean the battery fan occasionally and that's it.The hybrids have gotten quite expensive secondhand but I still think you'll have less maintenance overall.
Motoring journalists have the luxury of handing back the cars before they need money spent on them.Even Ebbs didn't go Skoda again and he's loaded.I wonder if he'll buy more Toyotas after the current ones are driven to death.
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Hybrids are cheaper to run around cities, diesels cheaper on the open road. I can't complain as far as service/maintenance costs go with my last Skoda - 2009 manual MKII diesel Octavia bought in 2014 - @ €2,800 over 5 years including one replacement clutch/flywheel @ €600 (supplied and fitted) and one replacement timing belt @ €395 (main dealer supplied and fitted). In fact it's still going strong under Mrs. Catcher's heavy footed treatment with only one routine servicie since it retired from the taxi fleet at the beginning of this year. I've driven less than 30,000 kilos in it's replacement - 2016 auto MKIII diesel Octavia - and spent €204 on maintenance without any big ticket items as follows:
23/01/2019 Floor Mats 20.00 Halfords/Tesco
01/02/2019 Screenwash 3.50 Tesco
11/03/2019 Oil (for topup) & camera 45.00 Micks
28/03/2019 119,197 Brake Fluid replaced 12.00 Euro Car Parts
28/03/2019 119,197 FR PS Door Handle oiled (3 in 1) 3.00 Euro Car Parts
29/07/2019 129,302 Oil 28.00 Micks
29/07/2019 129,302 Oil Filter & Bung 11.00 Annesley Williams
29/07/2019 129,302 Fuel Filter 39.00 Annesley Williams
29/07/2019 129,302 Pollen Filter (Charcoal) 10.00 Euro Car Parts
29/07/2019 129,302 RR Brake Pads (2/3) 14.00 Euro Car Parts
02/08/2019 Screenwash 3.50 Tesco
29/10/2019 Puncture RR DS 10.00 Collin
29/10/2019 Key Batteries 5.00 Tesco
I did seriously consider a hybrid but ended up being put off by the extra purchase cost, pricey batteries, extra "engine" and technology that I don't understand... although I guess I'd get to grips with that if required. I'll probably go the Prius route next time, getting an auto Octavia is my step in the "right" direction!
You could have done with an Air Freshner or two !
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I miss the comfort of the Octavia....the prius is a torture chamber....unless yur 5 ft nuttin.....
Same as the Camry....
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I've no problem with mine apart from the road noise.
I see Nissan are doing 3k scrappage on the Leaf as their sales are way down and they're having a tough time..Might be useful for someone now that they've got the bigger battery version available.
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I've no problem with mine apart from the road noise.
I see Nissan are doing 3k scrappage on the Leaf as their sales are way down and they're having a tough time..Might be useful for someone now that they've got the bigger battery version available.
Are all grants still available?
I haven't been keeping up.
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I doubt they've been used up yet Hal.From what I can gather the KIA E niro would still be a better EV overall for this job.Longer range but a little pricier.
The NTA usually make an announcement about grants at the end of the year.
Like everyone else I'll keep an eye on it until I'm due to change but another hybrid is probably the smart choice right now.I really wonder if loads switched over to EVs in the next 5 years would the ESB network have the capacity?
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EV , looks like a disaster waiting to happen in respect of charging points
https://www.thesun.ie/news/4759400/warning-electric-cars-charging-points/ (https://www.thesun.ie/news/4759400/warning-electric-cars-charging-points/)
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I think you have to charge them at home.Depending on the public chargers would be expensive and time consuming.Those public chargers are only meant for emergencies AFAIK.
Me missus says in the budget speech they were talking about chargers for taxis on ranks.I dunno how that's supposed to work out.I'm guessing it will be forgotten about as they're very expensive to install.
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EV , looks like a disaster waiting to happen in respect of charging points
https://www.thesun.ie/news/4759400/warning-electric-cars-charging-points/ (https://www.thesun.ie/news/4759400/warning-electric-cars-charging-points/)
Infrastructure is the biggest stumbling block in the Govts quest for 2030....paying lip service if ye like..it's what they do!!
Didn't they do away with the grant that was available to private motorists to change to EV in the last budget while announcing the introduction of charges at charge points?
All this carbon tax is a nonsense....it's ringfenced alri....to secure and maintain the gold plated pensions for TD's
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Do you remember the advertisement on the telly years ago for surf or bold washing powder?
Surf now so clean it makes yur whites look bluey white .....
Then bold said our washing powder is even bluey white more than our competitors (surf)....and they had a ma an a kid dressed in blue clothes that wer nearly white and they
Said blue white was white er than real white ......
Well that's cleaner burning diesel engines.......its all horse shite......diesel is an oil and no matter wat ya do it's going have shite coming out the exhaust......that why they started fiddling wit the software emissions testing .....
Another load of shite is green hybred and blue engine's......all suggesting forests of trees and blue oceans and lovely tings ....if yu want to go green .......buy a horse off thee travellers
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You could have done with an Air Freshner or two !
Any idea where I might get some used ashtray flavoured ones?
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Get a vape flavoured one.
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Get a vape flavoured one.
That was one of the best air fresheners I had
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Had a go in an Audi e-tron the other day... never driven anything like it, fully electric and 0-120 in an instant, like flicking a switch... shame it retails for 6 figures.
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They're lovely...even the humble Leaf would leave most Golf GTIs behind at the lights.I'm surprised insurance companies haven't started to load them more.
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Some motor alright... you feel like you're sat still while cruising along at 60 kilos per hour. I'm a pretty conservative driver these days but I have to admit feeling the temptation to floor it!
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Formula E race cars are faster than Grand Prix cars .In some parts od Dublin cycling is faster than driving
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I'm surprised you can afford to reply these days John...are ye using the home wifi or your phone data?
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Formula E race cars are faster than Grand Prix cars .In some parts od Dublin cycling is faster than driving
You'd think there was a sprint event in Clondalkin, it seems everyone has a gun!! 8)
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I'm surprised you can afford to reply these days John...are ye using the home wifi or your phone data?
rofl
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My mate had a leaf stolen 2 weeks ago in ashbourne
The garda said its happened alot lately been stolen for parts
A certain gang or race doing it who also sell carpet and drive hiaces
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My mate had a leaf stolen 2 weeks ago in ashbourne
The garda said its happened alot lately been stolen for parts
A certain gang or race doing it who also sell carpet and drive hiaces
Fukin proddies!!
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My mate had a leaf stolen 2 weeks ago in ashbourne
The garda said its happened alot lately been stolen for parts
A certain gang or race doing it who also sell carpet and drive hiaces
Robbing it for For the metals ?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/boy-who-was-knocked-down-by-electric-car-settles-case-for-55000-937868.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/boy-who-was-knocked-down-by-electric-car-settles-case-for-55000-937868.html)
Obviously this case is legit but I see they argued that they could not hear the electric car and got no warnings......
A fact I'm sure the scammers out ther will take note of
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Would the accident have happened if the car had a petrol/diesel engine.....probably....it was the responsibility of the driver to drive with due care especially in car parks but saying that as a parent i've always had control of my kids when they were small especially in car parks...cos there's generally cars there.