Irish Taxi Forum
Public Area => Taxi Talk => Topic started by: U Wha on March 28, 2018, 05:11:07 pm
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I am going to get the ball rolling on the eircab app driver co-op.
It will take a few months, but no need to rush it as we all are currently benefiting from the bonuses and low commissions being offered at the moment from the other apps.
There is a mandatory requirement for seven people that will benefit from the co-op to incorporate the co-op.
This will be voluntary and will involve preparing a basic business plan to detail viability and the rules of the co-op.
Rat Catcher has put his name forward and so Have I.
There is another lad I know from the rank in Dundrum who said he would be interested but I have to check with him again, its been a couple of months.
Anyone else that wold like to be involved in establishing the co-op should put their name by posting here.
If there is more than 7 names we can pull names from a hat.
All members will pay a once off €100 admin fee and the seven special/founding members that incorporate the co-op will use their fees to cover the registration.
Any questions please ask?
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Incorporating a Co-operative Society
What Incorporation Means
Co-operative societies of all types are incorporated by being registered under the Industrial and
Provident Societies Acts 1893 -1978. The Registrar of Friendly Societies administers these Acts. The
office of the Registrar is located at Parnell House, 14 Parnell Square, Dublin 1.
A minimum of seven persons is required to incorporate a co-operative society under the legislation.
(Where a federal or secondary co-operative is being established by two or more co-operatives a
minimum of two participating co-operatives is sufficient.) A suitable name must be chosen for the
co-operative and the name must include the words "Society" and "Limited". A registered office for
the proposed co-operative must be identified to which all correspondence can be sent.
Legal Nature of a Co-operative
A registered co-operative, like a company, is an incorporated legal entity. It is a legal person separate
from the members who set it up. It can act on its own initiative, can enter contracts, can sue and be
sued, but must also be responsible for its actions. Like a company, a co-operative enjoys limited
liability. The liability of the members is limited to the shares they have applied for in the cooperative.
The word "Limited" should always appear after the name of the co-operative.
Special Members
The people who sign the application for registration are called the Special Members. They must act
as the Committee of Management or Board of Directors of the co-operative until the first Statutory
General Meeting is held, usually as soon as convenient after registration.
New Members/Elections
Authority to admit people to membership of a co-operative rests with the Committee of
Management/Board (with the Special Members until the Committee or Board is first elected). The
Special Members admit applicants to membership of the co-operative and issue them with shares
for which they have applied. Usually a standard form of application is available and each cooperative
will have its own internal rules about the level of investment required from members.
The new total membership will then elect a Committee of Management or Board under the Rules of
the co-operative and that group will normally hold office for a year until the next Annual General
Meeting. The Rules provide for a proportion of the Committee/Board to retire each year and be
eligible for re-election.
Shareholding Limits
Under current legislation no individual member can hold an interest of more than €150,000 or 1% of
the total asset value of the co-operative whichever is the greater in any co-operative society.
Reporting Requirements
The law requires that each society must keep appropriate accounts, books and records and the
members in general meeting must appoint a public auditor annually. There is also a requirement
that the audited accounts be submitted with a properly completed Annual Return to the Registrar of
Friendly Societies by the 31st March. Every three years a society must complete a “Triennial Return”
and submit it to the Registrar of Friendly Societies. The appropriate forms and further details in
regard to these requirements can be had by contacting the Registry of Friendly Societies.
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If it’s a true CO-OP, why limit it to 7, seven is the minimum requirement, no maximum?
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If it’s a true CO-OP, why limit it to 7, seven is the minimum requirement, no maximum?
Fair point. Not sure if it is fixed or a maximum of 7 to set it up, I will ask.
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If it’s a true CO-OP, why limit it to 7, seven is the minimum requirement, no maximum?
Fair point. Not sure if it is fixed or a maximum of 7 to set it up, I will ask.
NOT SURE ..dead before it launched .Why do taxi app promoters never develope a proper business proposal before they look for support .
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If it’s a true CO-OP, why limit it to 7, seven is the minimum requirement, no maximum?
Fair point. Not sure if it is fixed or a maximum of 7 to set it up, I will ask.
NOT SURE ..dead before it launched .Why do taxi app promoters never develope a proper business proposal before they look for support .
I have set out my idea/proposal a few times on different threads over the last few months. A search will bring them up.
However it is not my place to come up with a clearly defined finished product.
I have very strong views about how the co-op should operate but they are my views and if this is to be a truly democratic co-op then input from others is vital.
I propose a co-op that is one member one vote. The inaugural co-op board would decide policy, plan research, prepare a business model that suits the membership, the market and promote it to potential members.
Once the inaugural board agrees a direction, I will be happy to give my time as part of my college studies for the next year and help to implement the Boards policies.
I think you would be a great addition John as you have a particular way of looking at things and that would be good for the co-op as long as it was constructive. Even negativity can be constructive if used in the right way.
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I was in a badly run one briefly. A.S.A.P. were far more effective and Professional.
http://icos.ie/starting-a-co-op/intro/ (http://icos.ie/starting-a-co-op/intro/)
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I was in a badly run one briefly. A.S.A.P. were far more effective and Professional.
[url]http://icos.ie/starting-a-co-op/intro/[/url] ([url]http://icos.ie/starting-a-co-op/intro/[/url])
Lessons learnt and different times. Plenty of people with ideas there but wanted others to do the work.
Are ASAP.still running as a co-op?
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First define what your offering is it
(a) A taxi application to dispatch work to drivers .
(b) A taxiapp that dispatches workto its owners
If the answer is (a) Compare and contrast with existing apps and tell partisipants what differentiates you from all the other applications in the field and why they shold choose you .Give indept annalyses to support your assertions that your offering differs enough to encourage partisipation .
If the answer is (b) then incorporate your findings in support of proposition (a) and give a synopsis of why it would be benificial to be an owner of this application .Give a stage one annalyses of costs associated with the setting up and development of the Application including hosting and servicing . When you have assertained your infrastructure costs and basic operating costs .Then you can research the average Ehail fare for Dublin .I can help you with that as I partook in an exploritory Application Development with some Technitians from Amazon three years ago as posted on Roys .The average E hail fare for the Dublin region is 14 euro and the average city fare ie pick up and drop off between the Canals is 11.20 excluding PUC .Now using theose figures you can develope a matrix for the average amount of fares you will need to cover your running costs remember to include any Credit Card service charges to be extracted from any commissions and any Public Liability or Product insurance that may be necessary also include the cost of data storage to comply with existing of future legislation .Now from the simple Business Structural Cost Anallysis you will of carried out ,you should be able to develope a simple prospectus which may state that .Your proposal is to develope an application to compete with existing Taxi dispatch applications that is driver owned on a Co Op basis .Our research has pointed to a basic of (x) amount of jobs per week based on an average fare of 12.60 .Now you have a tangable costed Initial offering you put that costed proposition to perspective Co Op members and see if they think it is viable .Then you sign up possible members ,based on the number of members you set a share price and explain how the share capital is to be used in the development of the project After you have your members then you offer one man one vote you develope a constitution vote on it and then take your chances .
I need a few people @100 yoyo a head is not a business plan .I wish you the best of luck but like many others who have and will try your chance of success is very slight .Hailo were given over 50 million euro in good will through drivers not charging PUC and Free waiting time ,They reinvested most of their profits back into the business and still had to be rescued by Daimlers Billions .As an academic exercise follow my simple business plan as it will show your College that you understand the actual business you are studying but as a Real for Profit business idea I cannot see any merit in it .
N.B.The figures I gave for average fares are averaged over a 24 hour cycle and were gained by using analytical tools based on data collected from their own research .So I would use a lower figure when calculating how many jobs per day/week/or month your Co Op would need to break even as there may be a distortion in the figures based on rate 1 or Rate 2 fare compleations.It might be better to deduct the % difference between Rate 1 and Rate "2 from each fare that way any miscalculation of the break even point will appear on the credit side of the equation .Also those figures were calculated before the 3% fare increase which must be included in calculations .
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You forgot advertising/marketing costs John M.
To quote Bill Gates; "If I only had $5 left in the world,
then I would spend it on marketing".
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If it’s a true CO-OP, why limit it to 7, seven is the minimum requirement, no maximum?
Fair point. Not sure if it is fixed or a maximum of 7 to set it up, I will ask.
That's not a good start U Wha, did you not read reply number 1
before you posted it yourself.
Incorporating a Co-operative Society
A minimum of seven persons is required to incorporate a co-operative society under the legislation.
-
You forgot advertising/marketing costs John M.
To quote Bill Gates; "If I only had $5 left in the world,
then I would spend it on marketing".
Fixed costs only .Advertising wages promotions would be discretionary spending .First you need to identify how much it costs to just engage the system .As I said how many jobs to break even .Then drivers will know based on the amount of drivers signing up how many jobs they would each have to commit to in order to make the idea viable or how little work might be available if the amount of drivers are oversubscribed .By having a realistic operational figure you can then decide if you need to limit the initial intake of drivers with a waiting list that will allow drivers join in pro rata .Will there be a committment from drivers to cover all job offers as they are owner operaters .Co Op are a bit like communism where they are run for the Common Good as long as the other fells does more than you do but you get the same reward .Metaxi have this Game sewn up due to the tens of Millions drivers contributed to establishing it .FLAG have the fairest system but have no funds to attract drivers or passengers .I would suggest a 4 Million Euro budget would be needed just to have a chance not withstanding any retalliation from Metaxi .If I was to advise a driver on the most effective option I would suggest become a Mytaxi Ambassador ,they have the work simple as .
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If it’s a true CO-OP, why limit it to 7, seven is the minimum requirement, no maximum?
Fair point. Not sure if it is fixed or a maximum of 7 to set it up, I will ask.
That's not a good start U Wha, did you not read reply number 1
before you posted it yourself.
Incorporating a Co-operative Society
A minimum of seven persons is required to incorporate a co-operative society under the legislation.
I know they state a minimum of 7 and there is no reference to a maximum so in theory a 1000 founding members could set it up but they may not allow that as it would be a lot of administration processing for the registrar and umbrella body that helps co-ops set up. That is where I found the rules of incorporation on the 2nd post of this thread, ICOS which was also referred to by Silverbullet.
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A Co Op may have as many members as it desires PROVIDED the registrar has the proper documentation on record. Co Op should be restricted to 1 member 1 vote. No member should have a shareholding value greater than another member. Here`s where it tends to fall down : The AGM elects the officers. Now regardless of hiring outside "professionals", some inbred fuck will normally take umbrage at some perceived slight on his/her brilliance and then it all turns to shite.
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First define what your offering is it
(a) A taxi application to dispatch work to drivers .
(b) A taxiapp that dispatches workto its owners
If the answer is (a) Compare and contrast with existing apps and tell partisipants what differentiates you from all the other applications in the field and why they shold choose you .Give indept annalyses to support your assertions that your offering differs enough to encourage partisipation .
If the answer is (b) then incorporate your findings in support of proposition (a) and give a synopsis of why it would be benificial to be an owner of this application .Give a stage one annalyses of costs associated with the setting up and development of the Application including hosting and servicing . When you have assertained your infrastructure costs and basic operating costs .Then you can research the average Ehail fare for Dublin .I can help you with that as I partook in an exploritory Application Development with some Technitians from Amazon three years ago as posted on Roys .The average E hail fare for the Dublin region is 14 euro and the average city fare ie pick up and drop off between the Canals is 11.20 excluding PUC .Now using theose figures you can develope a matrix for the average amount of fares you will need to cover your running costs remember to include any Credit Card service charges to be extracted from any commissions and any Public Liability or Product insurance that may be necessary also include the cost of data storage to comply with existing of future legislation .Now from the simple Business Structural Cost Anallysis you will of carried out ,you should be able to develope a simple prospectus which may state that .Your proposal is to develope an application to compete with existing Taxi dispatch applications that is driver owned on a Co Op basis .Our research has pointed to a basic of (x) amount of jobs per week based on an average fare of 12.60 .Now you have a tangable costed Initial offering you put that costed proposition to perspective Co Op members and see if they think it is viable .Then you sign up possible members ,based on the number of members you set a share price and explain how the share capital is to be used in the development of the project After you have your members then you offer one man one vote you develope a constitution vote on it and then take your chances .
I need a few people @100 yoyo a head is not a business plan .I wish you the best of luck but like many others who have and will try your chance of success is very slight .Hailo were given over 50 million euro in good will through drivers not charging PUC and Free waiting time ,They reinvested most of their profits back into the business and still had to be rescued by Daimlers Billions .As an academic exercise follow my simple business plan as it will show your College that you understand the actual business you are studying but as a Real for Profit business idea I cannot see any merit in it .
N.B.The figures I gave for average fares are averaged over a 24 hour cycle and were gained by using analytical tools based on data collected from their own research .So I would use a lower figure when calculating how many jobs per day/week/or month your Co Op would need to break even as there may be a distortion in the figures based on rate 1 or Rate 2 fare compleations.It might be better to deduct the % difference between Rate 1 and Rate "2 from each fare that way any miscalculation of the break even point will appear on the credit side of the equation .Also those figures were calculated before the 3% fare increase which must be included in calculations .
John the above suggestions are a good idea and that is exactly why I think someone like yourself should be involved in the co-op, with your knowledge and obvious passion for our profession the co-op would be better for it.
however, If you are suggesting that I do the above as the first individual promoter of the proposal, I don't think so.
If I tried to give prospective members that much information as a pitch, their eyes would glaze over in most cases. A brief synopsis that outlines the proposal, having the necessary research to back it up, which would allow questions to be answered accurately. The key is driver support and spreading the word.
The most fundamental part of the proposal, is a taxi driver co-op that is open, transparent and owned equally by all drivers. The co-op will design and own a taxi app that suits the members needs.
How that works and how it is financed is open for debate, discussion and agreement by the members. It is not up to me,
I have strong ideas on how I think a co-op should work and the suggestions you made are valid too, but only with the agreement of the members.
No point in me or anyone else chasing tails, coming up with ideas that the majority of members don't like or disagree with, as that would be a recipe for disaster.
As eluded to by silverbullet about his brief experience of a badly run co-op, I was involved in that. Mistakes were made by me and others.
I tried to implement my ideas and that proved to be a disaster as other members had different ideas which created friction, division and disagreement.
I gained invaluable experience which cannot be bought. The in's, out's and pitfalls of starting a co-op, dealing with committees and members.
Hopefully I have learnt and maybe the timing in 2010 was premature, in the middle of a recession, the app technology that is in use today today was in its infancy and the co-op tried to operate like a traditional dispatcher with associated high costs.
One lesson that I learnt is, not to come up with a complete package to promote as it may not be ideal. Ideally what should be done is to promote a concept.
"A market leading taxi app owned by a drivers co-op that delivers a superior service creating value for drivers and passengers."
New members would join the co-op and receive there membership share certificate. The €100 admin fee held in escrow by a reputable solicitor or accountancy firm until a viable number of members have joined less a suggested 20% non refundable portion to cover the membership promotion campaign costs. Exactly how and what for to be determined by the founding members and Board. On reaching the minimum viable number of members required. The board would commence negotiations to design a customized taxi app were the proprietary rights belong to the co-op and engage with a PR firm on how best to promote the new app. When that is achieved the board will recruit the necessary non driver/member staff to run the operation on a day to day basis.
How we do that is up to members, once members agree, I happy to do whatever I can to make that happen for the first year as part of my college course.
I have tried to shake the idea off, I have tried to take on board comments and suggestions that it couldn't work, but there is something that draws me back, something inside me believes that this can work.
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A Co Op may have as many members as it desires PROVIDED the registrar has the proper documentation on record. Co Op should be restricted to 1 member 1 vote. No member should have a shareholding value greater than another member. Here`s where it tends to fall down : The AGM elects the officers. Now regardless of hiring outside "professionals", some inbred fuck will normally take umbrage at some perceived slight on his/her brilliance and then it all turns to shite.
Ha Ha, True! sounds like you have some experience of it.
Hopefully if it is made clear from the start the inbred fuck, myself included won't be upset. If ego's are kept out of it it may work. Wonder if it make sense to talk to other co-ops, GAA and Credit unions to see how they have dealt with it.
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You forgot advertising/marketing costs John M.
To quote Bill Gates; "If I only had $5 left in the world,
then I would spend it on marketing".
Fixed costs only .Advertising wages promotions would be discretionary spending .First you need to identify how much it costs to just engage the system .As I said how many jobs to break even .Then drivers will know based on the amount of drivers signing up how many jobs they would each have to commit to in order to make the idea viable or how little work might be available if the amount of drivers are oversubscribed .By having a realistic operational figure you can then decide if you need to limit the initial intake of drivers with a waiting list that will allow drivers join in pro rata .Will there be a committment from drivers to cover all job offers as they are owner operaters .Co Op are a bit like communism where they are run for the Common Good as long as the other fells does more than you do but you get the same reward .Metaxi have this Game sewn up due to the tens of Millions drivers contributed to establishing it .FLAG have the fairest system but have no funds to attract drivers or passengers .I would suggest a 4 Million Euro budget would be needed just to have a chance not withstanding any retalliation from Metaxi .If I was to advise a driver on the most effective option I would suggest become a Mytaxi Ambassador ,they have the work simple as .
I don't think waiting lists are a good idea, in my experience drivers can be offended by that. What ever operation you start it should be able to manage any amount of drivers. As for a lack of work in this scenario, members on joining will be told other than the once off admin fee it will cost them nothing until they work. Drivers that do more will benefit by paying less commission as they move on a volume based scale. The ownership and shareholding are completely separate to the work.
I have spoken to a few Irish App development companies and they appear to speak the same language with regard to costs.
Wireframe to MPV (Minimum Viable Product) for 2 apps (Customer and Driver) on Android and Apple with Back End Admin functions and data storage would cost approx €15,000 to come up with a basic functional prototype.
This could rise to €50,000 in time as you add functionality and a maintenance contract can be negotiated or additional ad-hoc hours may be facilitated at an agreed hourly rate.
The biggest cost will be promotion and marketing. Although you would expect the members to be the best promoters and marketers with passengers in-car, handout literature and talk about the app and when all apps are busy cover the co-op work first. That would reduce the marketing to seasonal campaigns and no need for driver incentives as they own the app. Done right it would put other apps under pressure to spend more.
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A Co Op may have as many members as it desires PROVIDED the registrar has the proper documentation on record. Co Op should be restricted to 1 member 1 vote. No member should have a shareholding value greater than another member. Here`s where it tends to fall down : The AGM elects the officers. Now regardless of hiring outside "professionals", some inbred fuck will normally take umbrage at some perceived slight on his/her brilliance and then it all turns to shite.
Ha Ha, True! sounds like you have some experience of it.
Hopefully if it is made clear from the start the inbred fuck, myself included won't be upset. If ego's are kept out of it it may work. Wonder if it make sense to talk to other co-ops, GAA and Credit unions to see how they have dealt with it.
I was a member of both VIP and Sixes Co-Ops. Served on both comittees. The inbred fuck gene cannot be controlled. Disagreements on policy /direction are never seen/understood as being part of development but rather as a personal insult/attack on the person with the opposing view. Even when the lowest / worst case scenario is presented (i.e. this is a possible outcome, can we live with it ) ,many will ignore the scenario in favour of the more likeable scenario that presents halfway through the discussion and then blame the "know it all mouth" when the worst case scenario shows up.
If the membership agree to operate from a "this is going to be total failure" mindset and elect the right intelligencia to run it, they`ll be on a winner. The officers and members HAVE to agree to disagree and protect the weakest link in the project. It`s all about truth .
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I was going to join that Co OP yourself and SB were part of until I spoke with one of your members at DAP. (It might have been you, I don`t know ). He was waiting on a returning Co OP customer he`d dropped out . Said it was common practice. Now, dunno about you, but if I`d joined , that bullshit would have resulted in a major row. Tying up work is a definite non runner.
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more bleeding unnessesary middle men coming into the industry NONE OF YA ARE NEEDED . RADIO COMPANYS, APPS, CO,OPS, ETC ETC will you all please fuck off and leave the drivers to remain independent, and not answerable to anyone PLEASE
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more bleeding unnessesary middle men coming into the industry NONE OF YA ARE NEEDED . RADIO COMPANYS, APPS, CO,OPS, ETC ETC will you all please fuck off and leave the drivers to remain independent, and not answerable to anyone PLEASE
You do realise that you are only one driver. I’m not sure who elected you chief spokesperson, but this particular driver does not require your representation.
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I was going to join that Co OP yourself and SB were part of until I spoke with one of your members at DAP. (It might have been you, I don`t know ). He was waiting on a returning Co OP customer he`d dropped out . Said it was common practice. Now, dunno about you, but if I`d joined , that bullshit would have resulted in a major row. Tying up work is a definite non runner.
Yes that was common practice. It came up at a meeting and the members agreed to allow return pick ups as long as the job was put into the system with the driver number on it. It encouraged drivers to promote the co-op to passengers by asking them did they want to book a return. If the customer had already asked for a return when making the outward booking the job stayed open on the system until a hour before it was due. If drivers didn't book it in and kept it to themselves there was a disciplinary process that that the membership agreed to. Booking it in and assigning the drivers number was more to do with the base knowing where drivers were and to ensure they weren't given another job around the same time. You know yourself, Drivers think "sure I can slip in a flyer and make the other job too". When that goes wrong you end up with unhappy customers.
That process might have changed after I left the co-op and the baseperson may have assigned the job to a driver dropping out as sometimes it was hard to cover work with such a small membership. If I remember correctly the o-op had to get a lot of work covered by other dispatchers as there wasn't enouh members out to cover the work including DAP jobs.
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A Co Op may have as many members as it desires PROVIDED the registrar has the proper documentation on record. Co Op should be restricted to 1 member 1 vote. No member should have a shareholding value greater than another member. Here`s where it tends to fall down : The AGM elects the officers. Now regardless of hiring outside "professionals", some inbred fuck will normally take umbrage at some perceived slight on his/her brilliance and then it all turns to shite.
Ha Ha, True! sounds like you have some experience of it.
Hopefully if it is made clear from the start the inbred fuck, myself included won't be upset. If ego's are kept out of it it may work. Wonder if it make sense to talk to other co-ops, GAA and Credit unions to see how they have dealt with it.
I was a member of both VIP and Sixes Co-Ops. Served on both comittees. The inbred fuck gene cannot be controlled. Disagreements on policy /direction are never seen/understood as being part of development but rather as a personal insult/attack on the person with the opposing view. Even when the lowest / worst case scenario is presented (i.e. this is a possible outcome, can we live with it ) ,many will ignore the scenario in favour of the more likeable scenario that presents halfway through the discussion and then blame the "know it all mouth" when the worst case scenario shows up.
If the membership agree to operate from a "this is going to be total failure" mindset and elect the right intelligencia to run it, they`ll be on a winner. The officers and members HAVE to agree to disagree and protect the weakest link in the project. It`s all about truth .
I agree and that truth is just as or more important than the other elements needed to make it a suchess. If members believe in it, every thing else is achievable. So finding a process that works to prevent it is key. Other voluntary organisations make it work. This is what needs to researched properly.
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Truth is the keystone, everything builds from there. Anything less , non runner.
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I was going to join that Co OP yourself and SB were part of until I spoke with one of your members at DAP. (It might have been you, I don`t know ). He was waiting on a returning Co OP customer he`d dropped out . Said it was common practice. Now, dunno about you, but if I`d joined , that bullshit would have resulted in a major row. Tying up work is a definite non runner.
Noel O'Loughlin AKA Private Noel, stitched up work regularly and worked the Kesh.
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Dalymount,your sentiments are laudable but the simple face is that some people still like that human touch and like the idea of talking to someone to order their wheels (I'm not a company driver).
With the advent of cars off an Ap these will diminish but can't see them disappear completely.
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Well maybe I should encourage as many apps.and radio companies as possible to come into the industry.my hope is then.that they all end up cutting each others throats looking for drivers.and loads of them will go bust.yes I think thats the way I will go. I will encourage them from now on ha ha ha
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You forgot advertising/marketing costs John M.
To quote Bill Gates; "If I only had $5 left in the world,
then I would spend it on marketing".
Fixed costs only .Advertising wages promotions would be discretionary spending .First you need to identify how much it costs to just engage the system .As I said how many jobs to break even .Then drivers will know based on the amount of drivers signing up how many jobs they would each have to commit to in order to make the idea viable or how little work might be available if the amount of drivers are oversubscribed .By having a realistic operational figure you can then decide if you need to limit the initial intake of drivers with a waiting list that will allow drivers join in pro rata .Will there be a committment from drivers to cover all job offers as they are owner operaters .Co Op are a bit like communism where they are run for the Common Good as long as the other fells does more than you do but you get the same reward .Metaxi have this Game sewn up due to the tens of Millions drivers contributed to establishing it .FLAG have the fairest system but have no funds to attract drivers or passengers .I would suggest a 4 Million Euro budget would be needed just to have a chance not withstanding any retalliation from Metaxi .If I was to advise a driver on the most effective option I would suggest become a Mytaxi Ambassador ,they have the work simple as .
I don't think waiting lists are a good idea, in my experience drivers can be offended by that. What ever operation you start it should be able to manage any amount of drivers. As for a lack of work in this scenario, members on joining will be told other than the once off admin fee it will cost them nothing until they work. Drivers that do more will benefit by paying less commission as they move on a volume based scale. The ownership and shareholding are completely separate to the work.
I have spoken to a few Irish App development companies and they appear to speak the same language with regard to costs.
Wireframe to MPV (Minimum Viable Product) for 2 apps (Customer and Driver) on Android and Apple with Back End Admin functions and data storage would cost approx €15,000 to come up with a basic functional prototype.
This could rise to €50,000 in time as you add functionality and a maintenance contract can be negotiated or additional ad-hoc hours may be facilitated at an agreed hourly rate.
The biggest cost will be promotion and marketing. Although you would expect the members to be the best promoters and marketers with passengers in-car, handout literature and talk about the app and when all apps are busy cover the co-op work first. That would reduce the marketing to seasonal campaigns and no need for driver incentives as they own the app. Done right it would put other apps under pressure to spend more.
So what is on offer here .You dont own the app you dont have any passengers and you want 100 euro administration fee from drivers who will then pay commission on any work they do I suggested you do a simple cost base annalyses of the structure of your pricing so you could actually offer a break even point which would then offer drivers the opportunity to identify at what point their investment might yield a dividend but you never responded .So the offer is. I can download your app for a ton with no guarentee of work or I can download the Mytaxi app for free and they have loads of work or download the UBER app for free and they have some work or I can download Cab app for free they might have a job a month or download FLAG for free who lets wait and see .Or pay a ton for this app .I think you need to go back to the drawing board Nobody is going to give you a ton for absolutely nothing .
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I have tried to shake the idea off, I have tried to take on board comments and suggestions that it couldn't work, but there is something that draws me back, something inside me believes that this can work.
Go with your First feeling U Wha "It couldn't work", maybe it would have a chance if it was the only app on the market, but it isin't by a long chalk !
Regardless of what you develop, it is going to need weekly cash to pay staff wages, Computers, Software, Lecky, Advertising, Etc, Etc...
And the only way to get that cash in, is to charge the drivers commission on their work and Guess Wha ? Someone else already thought of that !
BTW I wish you ever success on your venture and I hope that I am totally wrong on my predictions.
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There is one point everyone seems to be overlooking
All these new apps,radio companies,coops etc require drivers.
Now if they dont all get their share of drivers,the first thing they will do is start whinging to the NTA to issue more lincences
So by joining them you are cutting your own throats
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There is one point everyone seems to be overlooking
All these new apps,radio companies,coops etc require drivers.
Now if they dont all get their share of drivers,the first thing they will do is start whinging to the NTA to issue more lincences
So by joining them you are cutting your own throats
You have actually contradicted yourself there Dalymount.
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Well you maybe right. What im saying is everyone of these companies at the moment have a limited pool of drivers who may sign up with them. Now this means the more apps,radio companies,co_ops that come industry,the less drivers there will be to compete for.so the liklehood,is they will go running to the NTA to increase the number of taxi licences issued so they can all have tgeir fair share of drivers.its probably the reason they are currently advertising for 1600 new deivers due. To pressure being put on them by the dispatchers,and of cours joe heron pointing out to them we need more drivers.
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PRESS RELEASES.
BMW and Daimler are joining forces to offer customers a single source for “sustainable urban mobility services” to fight off competition like Uber, Lyft and Waymo in what is now a bloated and competitive market.
The two companies this week signed an agreement to merge their mobility services business units. Subject to examination and approval by the responsible competition authorities, BMW and Daimler plan to combine and strategically expand their existing on-demand mobility offering in the areas of CarSharing, Ride-Hailing, Parking, Charging and Multimodality.
Each company will hold a 50-percent stake in a joint-venture model comprising both companies’ mobility services. The two companies will remain competitors in their respective core businesses.
The aim is to become a leading provider of innovative mobility services with ride-hailing one of the big focuses. Between the two companies they current offer several ride-hailing apps; mytaxi, Chauffeur Privé, Clever Taxi and Beat.
In total, 13 million customers and some 140,000 drivers are already using the modern, practical and fast way of Ride-Hailing with mytaxi, Clever Taxi and Beat or private hire vehicle service Chauffeur Privé.
“The future of mobility lies in cities: The key to more liveable cities is in intelligent and seamless services that are easy to use and combine sustainable modes of transport and mobility services,” said Peter Schwarzenbauer, member of the Board of Management of BMW AG, responsible for MINI, Rolls-Royce, BMW Motorrad, Customer Engagement and Digital Business Innovation BMW Group.
“The pioneering work and commitment of the employees who provide our services have laid a valuable foundation. I would like to thank them very much indeed for all that they have done,” Schwarzenbauer continued.”
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It's a good point, DM. I guess we have to consider why they experience a shortage of drivers now that they all allow drivers charge full fare. Why don't drivers want to cover the work, etc... In an ideal world drivers' representatives on TAC would protect drivers' interests but, as we have seen, they are complicit in NTAs recruitment drive.
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All these new apps,radio companies,coops etc require drivers.
Now if they dont all get their share of drivers,the first thing they will do is start whinging to the NTA to issue more lincences
So should we sign up to stop them asking the NTA fer more licences ?
So by joining them you are cutting your own throats
So should we Not sign up ?
Which is it Dalymount ?
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PRESS RELEASES.
BMW and Daimler are joining forces to offer customers a single source for “sustainable urban mobility services” to fight off competition like Uber, Lyft and Waymo in what is now a bloated and competitive market.
The two companies this week signed an agreement to merge their mobility services business units. Subject to examination and approval by the responsible competition authorities, BMW and Daimler plan to combine and strategically expand their existing on-demand mobility offering in the areas of CarSharing, Ride-Hailing, Parking, Charging and Multimodality.
Each company will hold a 50-percent stake in a joint-venture model comprising both companies’ mobility services. The two companies will remain competitors in their respective core businesses.
The aim is to become a leading provider of innovative mobility services with ride-hailing one of the big focuses. Between the two companies they current offer several ride-hailing apps; mytaxi, Chauffeur Privé, Clever Taxi and Beat.
In total, 13 million customers and some 140,000 drivers are already using the modern, practical and fast way of Ride-Hailing with mytaxi, Clever Taxi and Beat or private hire vehicle service Chauffeur Privé.
“The future of mobility lies in cities: The key to more liveable cities is in intelligent and seamless services that are easy to use and combine sustainable modes of transport and mobility services,” said Peter Schwarzenbauer, member of the Board of Management of BMW AG, responsible for MINI, Rolls-Royce, BMW Motorrad, Customer Engagement and Digital Business Innovation BMW Group.
“The pioneering work and commitment of the employees who provide our services have laid a valuable foundation. I would like to thank them very much indeed for all that they have done,” Schwarzenbauer continued.”
I reckon that post was worthy of it's own section Korky.
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Belker
There is no contradicition.my views are well known to you.say for instance there is 10 thousand taxi drivers in Ireland.lets say we were aligned in the following way.the 4 biggest companies cannot cover their work, so they conclude the only way to deal with it is, to go whinging to the NTA to issue more licences.my arguement is, that the NTA are now in a position to make that determination that more taxis are needed simply because the situation is being monitored, and reported on by the radio companies,ably assisted by a certain driver representitive
Now in addition to that,when you sign up with a radio company,you are giving up your right to work to your own termsand conditions.you might as well be back in the PAYE sector I have spoken to a few northern drivers, who woyld give anything to have the freedom we enjoy in the south,and they just cant understand why we would want to give that away.at the moment there is no legal requirement on us to align with anyone,but our drivers are trying hard to change a that as far as I can see
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Working MyTaxi is nothing like PAYE work, their terms and conditions which are not rigurousely inforced are a clean Joe, presentable clothing and No acting de maggot on fares, they are hardly setting the bar too high !
With the PUC reinstated any job under 16.50 you make a few cent on the PUC before you pay the 12% commission,
any job over 16.50 you lose a few cent.
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Any driver can sign up to mytaxi and never do a job for them.
In my opinion licences are not an issue, the new wheelie standards are not prohibitive, in fact as they have no 9 year rule they are better value than any saloon.
It’s understandable that as taxi drivers we want to be busy and therefore do not want to see a multitude of new drivers dilute the work down to a trickle again, on the other hand we are an aging group with very few young people applying for licenses. I think politicians and Nta management have learned from the errors of the past when making it a free for all. The two biggest obstacles currently are the difficulty of the test and insurance costs, I’d imagine the Nta will gradually add easier questions to the test in order to achieve a higher pass rate, the insurance however is a different ball game
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Belker
You need to read my post again I never mensioned mytaxi, or any other app in that particular post.
My problem is spacificly with radio companies wwho seem to think they are the drivers employers.
Although I dont believe the industry needs ANYdispatchers,I have a lot less problem with apps aa I have said in other posts
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DM
You are preaching to the converted about not working with dispatchers and apps. I started in this game as a hackney base controller back in the 90's, managed a taxi office and was involved in a co-op.
Today I work off ranks and the streets and rarely do any app work and only if it is beside me and worth doing. I have a huge problem with the 'FACT' that the apps will completely control this business in the future and most drivers can't see that because its all about commission or bonuses, living in the moment, which can happen due to the nature of the business.
In an ideal world taxis would be left to do what taxis are meant to do, work the streets and ranks, but that isn't going to happen, too much at stake for other parties.
So because other parties aren't going to leave the market I was advocating a co-op owned and controlled by drivers that dominates the market . That is how drivers can win, if you can't beat them join them as competitors and crush them!
as an aside,
App and Dispatch work is private hire or pre-book technically the domain of hackneys, Taxis use to take hackney work this way not the other way around, but since most hackneys drivers migrated to taxis it doesn't really matter anymore. Most of them probably moved to taxi licences because it allowed them to use bus lanes, and more than likely still do most of their work via dispatchers/Apps because they feel comfortable working that way. But the point I am making is that app or dispatch work may be considered additional to the traditional work on the street and ranks.
Taxi drivers don't have to take dispatch or app work , but if you don't take it you restrict yourself from a lot of work and with the progress of the apps there will be less and less traditional street and rank work and more work from apps. What does a taxi driver do? Put up with it and live for today? Get a hackney plate? Do something about it?
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You forgot advertising/marketing costs John M.
To quote Bill Gates; "If I only had $5 left in the world,
then I would spend it on marketing".
Fixed costs only .Advertising wages promotions would be discretionary spending .First you need to identify how much it costs to just engage the system .As I said how many jobs to break even .Then drivers will know based on the amount of drivers signing up how many jobs they would each have to commit to in order to make the idea viable or how little work might be available if the amount of drivers are oversubscribed .By having a realistic operational figure you can then decide if you need to limit the initial intake of drivers with a waiting list that will allow drivers join in pro rata .Will there be a committment from drivers to cover all job offers as they are owner operaters .Co Op are a bit like communism where they are run for the Common Good as long as the other fells does more than you do but you get the same reward .Metaxi have this Game sewn up due to the tens of Millions drivers contributed to establishing it .FLAG have the fairest system but have no funds to attract drivers or passengers .I would suggest a 4 Million Euro budget would be needed just to have a chance not withstanding any retalliation from Metaxi .If I was to advise a driver on the most effective option I would suggest become a Mytaxi Ambassador ,they have the work simple as .
I don't think waiting lists are a good idea, in my experience drivers can be offended by that. What ever operation you start it should be able to manage any amount of drivers. As for a lack of work in this scenario, members on joining will be told other than the once off admin fee it will cost them nothing until they work. Drivers that do more will benefit by paying less commission as they move on a volume based scale. The ownership and shareholding are completely separate to the work.
I have spoken to a few Irish App development companies and they appear to speak the same language with regard to costs.
Wireframe to MPV (Minimum Viable Product) for 2 apps (Customer and Driver) on Android and Apple with Back End Admin functions and data storage would cost approx €15,000 to come up with a basic functional prototype.
This could rise to €50,000 in time as you add functionality and a maintenance contract can be negotiated or additional ad-hoc hours may be facilitated at an agreed hourly rate.
The biggest cost will be promotion and marketing. Although you would expect the members to be the best promoters and marketers with passengers in-car, handout literature and talk about the app and when all apps are busy cover the co-op work first. That would reduce the marketing to seasonal campaigns and no need for driver incentives as they own the app. Done right it would put other apps under pressure to spend more.
So what is on offer here .You dont own the app you dont have any passengers and you want 100 euro administration fee from drivers who will then pay commission on any work they do I suggested you do a simple cost base annalyses of the structure of your pricing so you could actually offer a break even point which would then offer drivers the opportunity to identify at what point their investment might yield a dividend but you never responded .So the offer is. I can download your app for a ton with no guarentee of work or I can download the Mytaxi app for free and they have loads of work or download the UBER app for free and they have some work or I can download Cab app for free they might have a job a month or download FLAG for free who lets wait and see .Or pay a ton for this app .I think you need to go back to the drawing board Nobody is going to give you a ton for absolutely nothing .
For the €100 you get nothing but membership of a co-op. There is no app to download yet, there is no work yet (plenty there at the moment with other apps but that is today no guarantee for tomorrow) and no in-depth analysis. Members are buying into a concept that will work to protect their future by competing against the market leaders. If it doesn't work out €80 will held in escrow by a reputable firm and returned to members. €20 will be retained to cover set up costs, registration, printing , meetings etc. The co-op is about having a say in our industry and protecting tomorrow.
What I am suggesting is that the founding members get together to form the co-op, decide what needs to be done to launch the co-op/app. Eg: Basic legal structure that guarantees a democratic and transparent organisation, cost from a App developer, projected Marketing and Promotion costs and associated Admin costs.
All of your comments are valid and may be implemented but not until the co-op has been set up! You are having a laugh if you are suggesting that I should do all you have suggested and then have other members (as they will be entitled to) rubbish the recommendations/research/suggestions in favour of something else as elude to by Bubba.
"I was a member of both VIP and Sixes Co-Ops. Served on both comittees. The inbred fuck gene cannot be controlled. Disagreements on policy /direction are never seen/understood as being part of development but rather as a personal insult/attack on the person with the opposing view. Even when the lowest / worst case scenario is presented (i.e. this is a possible outcome, can we live with it ) ,many will ignore the scenario in favour of the more likeable scenario that presents halfway through the discussion and then blame the "know it all mouth" when the worst case scenario shows up.
If the membership agree to operate from a "this is going to be total failure" mindset and elect the right intelligencia to run it, they`ll be on a winner. The officers and members HAVE to agree to disagree and protect the weakest link in the project. It`s all about truth."
I will only work on processes and policies that will be agreed by the Inaugural Board.
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Belker
You need to read my post again I never mensioned mytaxi, or any other app in that particular post.
My problem is spacificly with radio companies wwho seem to think they are the drivers employers.
Although I dont believe the industry needs ANYdispatchers,I have a lot less problem with apps aa I have said in other posts
The dominant app, mytaxi, is a lot more expensive than fixed freight firms as far as full time drivers are concerned. At peak times freight can exceed €8/hour with the current average exceeding €3/hour. One would expect the so-called drivers' representatives on TAC to understand how those figures contribute to the firm's inability to cover peak time work in opposing the firm's demands for NTA to licence more drivers. They should, of course, also understand how apps decrease efficiency in covering work at peak times with drivers passing street hails to earn priority, gold stars, bonus payments or whatever. However, as we have seen the so-called drivers' representatives are firmly aligned with dispatch firms on this issue.
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Belker
You need to read my post again I never mensioned mytaxi, or any other app in that particular post.
My problem is spacificly with radio companies wwho seem to think they are the drivers employers.
Although I dont believe the industry needs ANYdispatchers,I have a lot less problem with apps aa I have said in other posts
eh...
more bleeding unnessesary middle men coming into the industry NONE OF YA ARE NEEDED . RADIO COMPANYS, APPS, CO,OPS, ETC ETC will you all please fuck off and leave the drivers to remain independent, and not answerable to anyone PLEASE
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What is the difference between a taxi and a hackney?
Taxi: a small public service vehicle (SPSV), for which a taxi licence has been granted. Taxis may stand for hire at a taxi rank and ply for hire on the street.
Hackney: a private hire small public service vehicle (SPSV) for which a hackney licence has been granted. Hackney cabs should be pre-booked on a private hire basis and cannot be hailed down in a public place.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/public_transport/regulation_of_taxis_and_small_public_service_vehicles.html (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/public_transport/regulation_of_taxis_and_small_public_service_vehicles.html)
Taxi drivers remaining independent would suggest that they only do street or rank work. I agree but unfortunately that pot of work is getting smaller and smaller. The apps are taking control of the work.
People don't walk out and hail taxis anymore, maybe in the city centre at peak times. People are using apps which is technically private hire. Drivers that think the apps will go away and do nothing will end up like the Dodo, Extinct!
MyTaxi is throwing cake to drivers at the moment but mark my words in years to come they will make us pay for breadcrumbs. The 'only' way is to work together and compete, the nature of the taxi business makes this a difficult proposition as we are self employed competitors that for the most part live in the moment. If we were only playing against each other on an even playing field that would be OK but we are not.
MyTaxi et al have drivers hooked in like geese being force fed grain and they will come for the foie gras.
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It's gone full circle. The old timers will tell you that getting flagged down on the street was a talking point before roof signs were introduced in the late 70s. The hackney trade evolved as street hails became commonplace and a taxi culture developed through the late 80s and 90s. Of course, entry liberalisation (2000) all but killed off the hackney trade in urban areas.
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A massive part of the popularity of the apps is due to card payment options.As we have seen before all drivers have to do is turn off any app for a few weeks and the customers will walk to the street.That's how the PUC was returned.Apps are here to stay but only if we allow them.
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U wha
I see you referenced my post to Belker where I suggested to him that he should read my post again.
Im asuming your refering to the part where I said I never mentioned mytaxi ?
If that is the case, then I suggest you ALSO read it again.
In it you will clearly see where I said I didnt mention mytaxi IN THIS PARTICULAR POST.having said that,I have read your post with interest regarding dispatchers,and I dont think we are a million miles away in our thinking.I think its fair to say we both have the same aspiration TI TAKE BACK CONTROL OF OUR INDUSTRY.the drivers are the only ones with the power to do this.
As I've always said, we can operate witgout them,but they cannot operate without us
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MFH
what you said,is the point I have been trying to make all along.if no app service is available,customers will have to come to the street.
People are not just going to stop using taxis just because they have to come out and hail.
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RC can you provide me with details of plates owed by White Dove Taxis. Thanks
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U wha
I see you referenced my post to Belker where I suggested to him that he should read my post again.
Im asuming your refering to the part where I said I never mentioned mytaxi ?
If that is the case, then I suggest you ALSO read it again.
In it you will clearly see where I said I didnt mention mytaxi IN THIS PARTICULAR POST.having said that,I have read your post with interest regarding dispatchers,and I dont think we are a million miles away in our thinking.I think its fair to say we both have the same aspiration TI TAKE BACK CONTROL OF OUR INDUSTRY.the drivers are the only ones with the power to do this.
As I've always said, we can operate witgout them,but they cannot operate without us
They will never bear us but we may beat ourselves
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RC can you provide me with details of plates owed by White Dove Taxis. Thanks
Got it sorted.
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U wha
I see you referenced my post to Belker where I suggested to him that he should read my post again.
Im asuming your refering to the part where I said I never mentioned mytaxi ?
If that is the case, then I suggest you ALSO read it again.
In it you will clearly see where I said I didnt mention mytaxi IN THIS PARTICULAR POST.having said that,I have read your post with interest regarding dispatchers,and I dont think we are a million miles away in our thinking.I think its fair to say we both have the same aspiration TI TAKE BACK CONTROL OF OUR INDUSTRY.the drivers are the only ones with the power to do this.
As I've always said, we can operate witgout them,but they cannot operate without us
They will never bear us but we may beat ourselves
A bad general can kill a good army .
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U wha
I see you referenced my post to Belker where I suggested to him that he should read my post again.
Im asuming your refering to the part where I said I never mentioned mytaxi ?
If that is the case, then I suggest you ALSO read it again.
In it you will clearly see where I said I didnt mention mytaxi IN THIS PARTICULAR POST.having said that,I have read your post with interest regarding dispatchers,and I dont think we are a million miles away in our thinking.I think its fair to say we both have the same aspiration TI TAKE BACK CONTROL OF OUR INDUSTRY.the drivers are the only ones with the power to do this.
As I've always said, we can operate witgout them,but they cannot operate without us
They will never bear us but we may beat ourselves
A bad general can kill a good army .
A stitch in time, saves nine
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Avoid Cliches...like the Plague.
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A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
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I am going to close off the opportunity for drivers to put their names forward as special (founding) members of the co-op that will own and operate the 'eircab' app.
Anyone that is interested in putting their name forward but hasn't so far, please do so here on this thread by the 27th April 2018.
Their isn't a huge amount of effort required. The special members will discuss and agree the objects of the co-op, rules of membership and a basic plan that outlines the feasibility of the co-op.
A meeting room will be provided free of charge at IADT. The time and date of the first meeting will be posted here and subsequent meeting times may be agreed by the members at each meeting.
Hopefully have the eircab co-op ready for registration by September 2018.
If everyone agrees to proceed with the co-op, the special members will need to put up the funds to register the co-op (€500)and the creation of some basic promotional material.
Exactly how much, is up to the members to decide at a meeting. There are some grants available once the co-op is registered.
I will ask the other non forum drivers if they are OK with me posting their names here, so that everyone knows whats going on and can't complain later.
Links to what special members will need to do:
http://icos.ie/starting-a-co-op/start-a-co-op-flow-chart/ (http://icos.ie/starting-a-co-op/start-a-co-op-flow-chart/)
http://icos.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ICOS_Starting-a-New-Co-operative.pdf (http://icos.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ICOS_Starting-a-New-Co-operative.pdf)
http://icos.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ICOS_New-Co-op-Business-Plan-Template.pdf (http://icos.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ICOS_New-Co-op-Business-Plan-Template.pdf)
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Gullibleshite@askmebollix.com. 8)
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Gullibleshite@askmebollix.com. 8)
rofl rofl rofl
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Gullibleshite@askmebollix.com. 8)
Fair play.silver. Have You down.
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Gullibleshite@askmebollix.com. 8)
Fair play.silver. Have You down.
Go Whistle. 8)