Irish Taxi Forum

Public Area => Taxi Talk => Topic started by: John m on July 19, 2022, 05:45:19 pm

Title: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 05:45:19 pm
Good afternoon,

On 17 June last, the NTA Board approved the Small Public Service Vehicle (Cashless Payment Facility) Regulations in addition the increase of the National Maximum Taxi Fare by 12% weighted across popular journeys and the Premium and Standard Rates.

The revised fare includes a 1% increase for the costs associated with providing a Cashless Payment Facility. The cashless payment facility regulations make it mandatory for all taxis to have an in-taxi point of sale cashless payment terminal and for cashless payments to be accepted for taxi journeys when requested by customers.

Both take effect on 1 September 2022.


https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/forms-and-guides/ (https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/forms-and-guides/)

The Guidelines for the Acceptance of Cashless Payments in Taxis were approved by the Advisory Committee on SPSVs and can be found below and on the Forms & Guides section of NTA’s website.

Yours sincerely,
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 05:48:43 pm
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Guidelines-for-the-Acceptance-of-Cashless-Payments-in-Taxis.pdf (https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Guidelines-for-the-Acceptance-of-Cashless-Payments-in-Taxis.pdf)
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on July 19, 2022, 05:53:10 pm
Page 8:  Issues with card payments

The NTA compliance team will, as always, exercise discretion and common sense in all complaints
investigations.

If a passenger card payment problem occurs, such as insufficient funds or the card has expired, for
example, drivers should treat the matter in the same way as when dealing with a passenger who finds
themselves unable to pay the fare in cash at the end of a journey. A different card may work or the
passenger may be able to pay cash for the fare calculated on the taximeter. The passenger may wish
to be taken to a cashpoint to get cash to pay the fare or have a third party pay on their behalf. If a
passenger refuses to pay and an amicable agreement cannot be found, drivers should consider
involving An Garda Síochána. It is an offence under section 24 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 for a
person who hires a taxi and, without reasonable excuse, does not pay the fare calculated in line the
maximum fares order by a verified taximeter.


To assist with local connectivity blackspots, drivers should consider whether the cashless payment
terminal chosen includes connectivity via combined connection types, i.e. Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and
2/3/4/5G mobile networks. Explain the situation to the passenger and a practical solution can usually
be found. It is particularly useful to explain known issues to the passenger prior to the commencement
of a journey.


If there is a documented internet or service supplier/payment processor outage preventing cashless
payments for all businesses
, drivers must explain this to intending passengers before they get into
their taxi and have evidence of this outage to provide to the NTA’s compliance team in the event of a
complaint being received. Any such outage is likely to be well publicised and known to passengers.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 05:53:22 pm
be correctly functioning to permit a taxi driver to operate, a driver is obliged to withdraw from
service if their terminal is broken or out of charge, in the same way as a taxi may not operate
without a functioning, verified taximeter.


THIS IS AN ISSUE .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on July 19, 2022, 06:00:16 pm
Pg 5:
Quote
Each cashless payment device must be associated with the driver providing the taxi service, rather than the taxi vehicle as some drivers use different vehicles, or rent or share a vehicle. It is necessary that the driver who takes payment for the journey is identified on the card payment transaction history of the passenger for both the passenger and NTA in the event of an error/complaint.

Will FN tell the passengers that Mr Watty was their taxi driver?  I have my name on the Sumup gadget but that was only because I couldn't think of anything clever to put there instead  :P

On the FN app, you can sign in to a different driver account instead of your own (never understood why this was an option).  Will this rule pose problems for them?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on July 19, 2022, 06:02:27 pm
Why should you have to withdraw from service if you can still legally accept cash as payment

Also can some1  tell me when all businesses out there will be forced to take card payments like the local Chinese
Must be the only industry where we are forced to accept card as payment.

Just waiting for the new decal stickers for rear doors from.nta

DRIVER ACCEPTS CARDS(prob 70 quid for them too)
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 06:07:38 pm
Why should you have to withdraw from service if you can still legally accept cash as payment

Also can some1  tell me when all businesses out there will be forced to take card payments like the local Chinese
Must be the only industry where we are forced to accept card as payment.

Just waiting for the new decal stickers for rear doors from.nta

DRIVER ACCEPTS CARDS(prob 70 quid for them too)

To stop cute whores trying to not operate one .Your Chinease is not Licenced they dont need to have a Triangle or High Vis .You do make a good point though the Rat made that very point months ago .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 06:09:20 pm
Just to put it in Perspective .I have had more runners than Card or Revolute failures .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on July 19, 2022, 06:11:12 pm
There still providing  a service to the public

Usual taxi drivers discrimination lol

Ahhh I think il go back to construction..this game is fucked
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 06:12:27 pm
There still providing  a service to the public

Usual taxi drivers discrimination lol

Ahhh I think il go back to construction..this game is fucked

Do you have a debit card ?.......WHY?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on July 19, 2022, 06:12:47 pm
I wonder if we can get the lower commission  rate off Sumup without going through Freenow?I'm paying 1.69% but they're getting a better deal somehow.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on July 19, 2022, 06:15:00 pm
I have the ecomm365 machine from.the crowd in navan
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 06:16:41 pm
I wonder if we can get the lower commission  rate off Sumup without going through Freenow?I'm paying 1.69% but they're getting a better deal somehow.

Revolute you dont pay .Has anybody looked into the Cheapest commission Square or Paypal or Apple Pay .?Im sure Watty will let us know its his sphere of influence he is normally good at this stuff.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on July 19, 2022, 06:17:29 pm
There still providing  a service to the public

Usual taxi drivers discrimination lol

Ahhh I think il go back to construction..this game is fucked

Do you have a debit card ?.......WHY?




Not enjoying taxi driving like I have previously

I think since covid people have changed a little
 People are more entitled or something,spoilt

Can't put my finger on it..

No repect for drivers anymore..cunts barely talk to ya anymore

I'm for card payments btw
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 06:19:38 pm
What do Ryanair use in the Sky ?Where they can take coin off your card even though its not connected to Tinternet .Is it possible to take a payment then  send it over to the bank later .Im sure most debit cards have an overdraft facility and you would probably be paid even if the funds were not available .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Jack Meoff on July 19, 2022, 06:42:48 pm
What do Ryanair use in the Sky ?Where they can take coin off your card even though its not connected to Tinternet .Is it possible to take a payment then  send it over to the bank later .Im sure most debit cards have an overdraft facility and you would probably be paid even if the funds were not available .

Done a job recently for a card and no internet reception.
Lucky he had cash as it was an 80 buck fare
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Bob Shillin on July 19, 2022, 06:47:38 pm
Just to put it in Perspective .I have had more runners than Card or Revolute failures .
May have something to do with the runners assessment of your capacity to run after them. Sorry, just today is take the piss with JM day.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 19, 2022, 06:56:06 pm
Just to put it in Perspective .I have had more runners than Card or Revolute failures .
May have something to do with the runners assessment of your capacity to run after them. Sorry, just today is take the piss with JM day.

Two Runners in 16 years Might have something to do with my Capacity to tear their fucking heads off .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on July 19, 2022, 07:05:19 pm

Done a job recently for a card and no internet reception.
Lucky he had cash as it was an 80 buck fare

We'll have to become experts in the price of gold and silver and take jewellery and watches in part payment.  "Hey Google, where's the nearest pawnbroker"  lol
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on July 20, 2022, 11:21:36 am
"Mytaxi007:
I have the ecomm365 machine from.the crowd in naval"

Thanks can you remind me what fees you're paying and how much is the terminal again.Their website doesn't specify fees.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on July 20, 2022, 05:07:18 pm
"Mytaxi007:
I have the ecomm365 machine from.the crowd in naval"

Thanks can you remind me what fees you're paying and how much is the terminal again.Their website doesn't specify fees.



(https://i.postimg.cc/kD5HLntM/Screenshot-20220720-170555-Gmail.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kD5HLntM)
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on July 20, 2022, 05:07:47 pm
10 euro a month also
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on July 20, 2022, 06:01:02 pm
Thanks for that 007.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 20, 2022, 07:13:53 pm
I am still trying to get a KBC mortgage moved and the Banks are acting the Cunt ,They wont offer a Fixed mortgage until the KBC loan is transferred to BOI .Its lost in the Bankisphere until it is exchanged .I was bollocking the bank today and talking to Advisor unknown and un named .I did get a bit of information out of him .Dont know if its relevant but ! .If we are required to have taxi recorded for Card payments on your account for tractability be carefull the bank dont offer you a business account as this incurs loads of hidden fees .



The descriptor field on the hirer’s bank statement must contain at least the name of the dispatch
operator or the words [TAXI or TACSAÍ]. Adopting this approach will allow a consumer to identify the
nature of the service to which a transaction relates on a bank statement.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on July 20, 2022, 07:36:32 pm
Mine says Sumup and my name AFAIK.

The only way the NTA could verify this is to make a payment to your device.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 20, 2022, 07:38:34 pm
Mine says Sumup and my name AFAIK.

The only way the NTA could verify this is to make a payment to your device.

Its not our account .Its the Passenger must be able to know they paid for a taxi .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on July 20, 2022, 08:07:29 pm
I see where they are coming from John but they'll have to do a transaction through my machine to find out that I don't have Taxi in my Sumup user name.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on July 20, 2022, 09:48:21 pm
Wonder does suitability check the payment device drivers will.have
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: silverbullet on July 20, 2022, 10:14:12 pm
Some drivers are paid in Coke...allegedly, is that Sniff and scratch as opposed to chip and pin?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on July 22, 2022, 01:24:42 pm
Wonder does suitability check the payment device drivers will.have

It might be a good idea for them to increase the LRA fee by €15.26 and process a charge of €0.03 as part of the assessment. That way they could check that the wording on clients' statements complies with any relevant regulation as well as checking that the yoke works.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on July 22, 2022, 01:26:39 pm
Anywaysanall, I've sought clarification on one aspect of the new regulatory framework, as below. I'll let yis know if I get any reply.

Email to NTA:

Hi,

With reference to Guidelines for the Acceptance of Cashless Payments in Taxis (June 2022) and S.I. No. 294 of 2022 I would be obliged if you could clarify the following:

Should technological failures prevent the on-demand processing of a card presented for payment of a fare and the passenger, perhaps unusually, declines any discussion of an amicable solution (as suggested within Guidelines for the Acceptance of Cashless Payments in Taxis, June 2022) and, in doing so, advises the driver that he (the driver) is legally obliged to accept the card payment (Part 1, Section 4, Subsection(b), S.I. No, 294 of 2022) and that he (the driver) is legally barred from recording any personal details (including but not limited to name, address, (digital) imagery, etc) relevant to said client (Part 1, Section 5, S.I. No, 294 of 2022), does the driver retain any legal entitlement to be paid and, if so, how can such a debt be enforced. In particular, would a driver presented with such a scenario be within his rights to summon An Garda Siochana and forcibly detain the client pending the arrival of a member of said force?

Regards,

Stephen O'Connell
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on July 31, 2022, 12:14:08 pm
I was in with Mr. Wu the other day, erm... I took a photograph for you:


(https://i.postimg.cc/bG98Fn4F/PXL-20220730-012255389.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bG98Fn4F)
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 31, 2022, 12:25:52 pm
Talking to Decco the Cunt down the Flats the other night .Decco has a lot of Legal experience he says .If Young Nodger was to jump into a taxi and arrive in the Third Block and there was no coin on his card .It would be Theft if Nodger was aware he had no coin on his card or Larcany by Deception as he uttered the card in payment knowing it had not got the necessary .A promise of a visit to the High Bench on Parkgate Street should regulate compliance but like you pointed out If Elon or Zuccerberg or Windy Miller the Turbine king turn off the Power or Internet are we entitled to request Shrapnel or Folding in return for services rendered ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on July 31, 2022, 12:35:55 pm
No answer from NTA on that one yet, erm.

There is, however, an extremely interesting line in the Guidelines document which suggests that in such circumstances an amicable solution can usually be found. How they define "usually" ought to be of particular interest to us and/or our representatives given that the regulation has yet to come into force and given that no other trade or citizen of the Free State is obliged to accept anything other than legal tender in settlement of a debt.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on July 31, 2022, 12:40:42 pm
Usually would Usually mean something that has become Usual due to Time and Practice .Like Customers asking taxi drivers are you on long thats usual but as you so astutely point out how can something be common practice and Usual if a format that never existed in fact does not yet exist until Sep1st .Now thats unusual .Is their any legal definition of Usual I know common practice exists in law but Usual ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on July 31, 2022, 12:47:27 pm
The Guideline document carries a disclaimer i.e. it doesn't purport to be a legal interpretation of the regulations. It's not difficult to foresee potential difficulties arising, though. If, for example, a fat lad decides to call the Gardai and, pending their arrival, decides to sit sit on a skinny little Barrister who claims to know he has no legal obligation to pay if the driver can't process a valid card, could said fat lad end up in trouble for false imprisonment, assault with a deadly weight or whatever?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Shallow Hal on July 31, 2022, 07:40:48 pm
Don't think John would be the type to sit on a skinny barrister....although!!
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 01, 2022, 02:31:24 pm
I don't think many blokes of our age would bother their testicles pursuing a taxi fare. I guess the potential problem is the extent to which it may become known that you don't have to pay the fare if you have a signal blocker or stolen card. Of course, we'll be accused of racism and all sorts if we refuse members of identifiable groups with a relatively high propensity to engage in schemes or arrangements the main or sole purpose of which being to commit fraud.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 01, 2022, 07:03:24 pm
Just to add another fly in the ointment...

You can refuse a passenger if:
Quote
A passenger who refuses to show ability to pay the fare when asked, or who refuses to pay a reasonable deposit before starting the journey;

Is waving a debit card at the taxi driver enough 'proof' they can pay? 

Or what if the driver asks to charge, say, €20 on Sumup before you start the journey "just in case" there's no signal out in Killiney or Lusk?  You can be sure the dodgy ones will know where the dead spots are in their neighbourhood  >:(

Or you charge a €10 deposit on Sumup on a €20 journey.  You get there and the guy says I already paid you - we agreed on the €10 fare back in town and I paid you upfront.  How do you prove who's right and who's wrong?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Horse on August 01, 2022, 07:44:35 pm
If it was me and I got to an Internet blind spot and my card thingy wouldn't work I'd god damn drive that mofo to another spot until I got it working. Blind spots are usually not that big so a few hundred yards down the road and you'd be good to go. You's folks seem to panic over stuff that may never happen and even if it does there's usually a way out of it. Give it over will yis.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 01, 2022, 08:03:19 pm
You're not earning money while you're driving around looking for 'the' signal.  Remember how it's supposed to work.  We drive people from A to B, they pay us, then they get out of the taxi and our lives!

And good luck stopping outside some drunken women's house and then driving away saying "we'll just drive down this dark road a bit, the phone signal is a bit dodgy here."
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Horse on August 01, 2022, 08:20:35 pm
If it's outside their house I'd suggest they give me their WiFi password and bobs your ma's brother.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 02, 2022, 07:48:23 am
Oh very clever  ::clap
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Horse on August 02, 2022, 09:29:19 am
Elementary dear Watson,  elementary.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Horse on August 02, 2022, 01:58:07 pm
Or if you wanted to be really paro about it, say if someone is going out the sticks, you could have Spotify or YouTube or something streaming as you drive along. You don't necessarily have to be listening to it. As soon as you lose your connection you could stop the car and tell the pax the craic. You'd know how much further more or less what's left on the journey so strike a deal. Pay for the full journey upfront or pay what's on the metre now and walk the rest. Most will pay upfront.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: vandriver on August 02, 2022, 02:01:19 pm
I had 2 jobs to Powerscourt waterfall yesterday.No signal whatsoever ,so I got cash upfront for both.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Horse on August 02, 2022, 06:47:44 pm
Is it certain networks that could have blindspots? Like meteror works here but o2 doesn't? If so and the pax reassure you that there will be a signal but then there isn't, couldn't they hotspot their connection to your phone if theirs works but yours doesn't? There's no way in hell I'd drive off unpaid because of no Internet connection.   Where's there's a will and all that.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 08, 2022, 11:20:34 am
I got an interim response from NTA, as follows:

Case Reference: CA129715

Dear Mr O'Connell

Thank you for contacting the NTA (National Transport Authority). We refer to your recent correspondence received on 22nd July 2022.

We will examine the information provided and will contact you regarding the outcome in due course.

If you have any further questions please contact our Information Line on 0818 064 000.

Yours Sincerely

National Transport Authority
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 08, 2022, 11:23:50 am
As it happenss, I have many questions... including the deposit issue touched on by Watty and if one needs a DO licence and/or a seat on TAC to apply "technology" fees and what might reasonably constitute use of or access to "technology"...

However, I'll wait for a substantive response to the first question first.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Bob Shillin on August 08, 2022, 05:39:41 pm
As it happenss, I have many questions... including the deposit issue touched on by Watty and if one needs a DO licence and/or a seat on TAC to apply "technology" fees and what might reasonably constitute use of or access to "technology"...

However, I'll wait for a substantive response to the first question first.
My breath , and typing finger are already bated for the follow up.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 08, 2022, 06:59:31 pm

With reference to Guidelines for the Acceptance of Cashless Payments in Taxis (June 2022) and S.I. No. 294 of 2022 I would be obliged if you could clarify the following:

Should technological failures prevent the on-demand processing of a card presented for payment of a fare and the passenger, perhaps unusually, declines any discussion of an amicable solution (as suggested within Guidelines for the Acceptance of Cashless Payments in Taxis, June 2022) and, in doing so, advises the driver that he (the driver) is legally obliged to accept the card payment (Part 1, Section 4, Subsection(b), S.I. No, 294 of 2022) and that he (the driver) is legally barred from recording any personal details (including but not limited to name, address, (digital) imagery, etc) relevant to said client (Part 1, Section 5, S.I. No, 294 of 2022), does the driver retain any legal entitlement to be paid and, if so, how can such a debt be enforced. In particular, would a driver presented with such a scenario be within his rights to summon An Garda Siochana and forcibly detain the client pending the arrival of a member of said force?

Regards,

Stephen O'Connell

You might not be able to take their name and address while processing the card because the only data you need at that point is on the card.  But if it fails, you'd be taking the name and address for a different reason and that would probably be legal?

Can't see them answering that bolded question.  Or if they do, it'll be to trust our dedicated hardworking Gardai to sort things out.  They're the only crowd legally allowed to use violence in this Republic.  So much for equality  >:(
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 09, 2022, 12:53:36 pm
...... it'll be to trust our dedicated hardworking Gardai to sort things out.  They're the only crowd legally allowed to use violence in this Republic.  So much for equality  >:(
I think the knackers are legally allowed to use violence also ??
Did ya ever see a knacker arrested fer assault ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: silverbullet on August 11, 2022, 03:36:41 pm
I had 2 jobs to Powerscourt waterfall yesterday.No signal whatsoever ,so I got cash upfront for both.
Did you get paid on the drip? 8)
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: TheDevilHimself on August 11, 2022, 08:06:02 pm
I had 2 jobs to Powerscourt waterfall yesterday.No signal whatsoever ,so I got cash upfront for both.
I  do job to there all the time . I always get paid  !
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 11, 2022, 08:47:13 pm
Yeah, but do you get paid by card or cash?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: silverbullet on August 11, 2022, 08:48:12 pm
Going to see a waterfall during a drought, some people sheesh!!
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 17, 2022, 12:42:19 pm
I got a reply (as below) that doesn't really answer the question. Maybe it's more a matter for the Dept or the Attorney General but I'll follow up with NTA for now and see what, if anything, transpires.

Response received:

Case Reference: CA129715

Dear Mr. O'Connell

Thank you for contacting the National Transport Authority (NTA). We refer to your recent correspondence received on 22nd July 2022.

The NTA compliance team will, as always, exercise discretion and common sense in all complaints investigations.

If a passenger card payment problem occurs, such as insufficient funds or the card has expired, for example, drivers should treat the matter in the same way as when dealing with a passenger who finds themselves unable to pay the fare in cash at the end of a journey. A different card may work or the passenger may be able to pay cash for the fare calculated on the taximeter. The passenger may wish to be taken to a cashpoint to get cash to pay the fare or have a third party pay on their behalf. If a passenger refuses to pay and an amicable agreement cannot be found, drivers should consider involving the Garda Síochána. It is an offence under section 24 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 for a person who hires a taxi and, without reasonable excuse, does not pay the fare calculated in line the maximum fares order by a verified taximeter.

To assist with local connectivity blackspots, drivers should consider whether the cashless payment terminal chosen includes connectivity via combined connection types, i.e. Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and 2/3/4/5G mobile networks. Explain the situation to the passenger and a practical solution can usually be found. It is particularly useful to explain known issues to the passenger prior to the commencement of a journey.

If there is a significant internet or service supplier/payment processor outage preventing cashless payments for all businesses, drivers must explain this to intending passengers before they get into their taxi and have evidence of this outage to provide to the NTA’s compliance team in the event of a complaint being received. Any such outage is likely to be well publicised and known to passengers.

If you have any further questions, please contact our Information Line on 0818 064 000.

Yours Sincerely

National Transport Authority
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 17, 2022, 12:59:04 pm
Follow up query submitted by email:

Hi,

Thank you for your response.

Unfortunately I am still unclear on the legal position in the event of an unanticipated technological failure. I understand that a client presenting a card with insufficient funds is legally obliged to pay the fare, perhaps in legal tender. However, what I don’t understand is whether a client who tenders a card which he is certain holds sufficient funds to cover the debt in question has any legal obligation to discharge said debt using some alternative methodology in the event of an unforeseen inability (on the part of the driver) to process the card tendered. In essence, I guess I’m wondering whether the driver’s unforeseen inability to process the payment could be relied upon as “reasonable excuse” to refuse payment utilising any alternative methodology.

Your attention to the above is very much appreciated and I look forward to your response.

Regards,

Stephen O’Connell.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 17, 2022, 01:45:17 pm
It is an offence under section 24 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 for a person who hires a taxi and, without reasonable excuse, does not pay the fare calculated in line the maximum fares order by a verified taximeter.

Yours Sincerely

National Transport Authority
I had a runner before and the Guard tried to fob me off to another Garda station by saying the offence only occurs at the end of the journey if he doesn't pay.  So, in your example, the customer could get into the taxi with his shiny Visa card and knowing he had money on it would be perfectly legal.  He wouldn't be potentially breaking the law until the end of the journey.  So explaining/asking about the internet connection at the start of the journey doesn't solve any problems.



Cash v. Card:
Something like this cropped up on Boards awhile back about shops being 'card only' and not taking cash.  The message I took from the more sensible answers was that if the shop had a sign at the door or on the menu BEFORE you bought/ordered something, then "card only" was valid because the customer knowing this in advance could always take their business elsewhere.

Of course the problem for us is that the NTA has ordered to take cash and card.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 17, 2022, 02:05:12 pm
Have to say, I never came across the "without reasonable excuse" bit attached to the legal obligation to pay. I've probably answered my own question without realising i.e. a driver not being able to take the payment through means he is legally obliged to provide presumably gives rise to a reasonable excuse not to pay... but I think I'll try to get NTA, the Dept or the AGs office to tell me that in their words.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 17, 2022, 02:35:54 pm
I wonder if "without reasonable excuse" is a recent addition to the law or has it always been there?  Bit like the soiling charge was €140, then it got changed to "up to €140."
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 17, 2022, 11:41:09 pm
Have to say, I never came across the "without reasonable excuse" bit attached to the legal obligation to pay. I've probably answered my own question without realising i.e. a driver not being able to take the payment through means he is legally obliged to provide presumably gives rise to a reasonable excuse not to pay... but I think I'll try to get NTA, the Dept or the AGs office to tell me that in their words.
I reckon you have had all the answers that the NTA will give.
I had it out with them last year when due to covid I could not get an NCT which I needed to pass upcoming suitability and they were most unhelpful, offering me no leeway at all.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 20, 2022, 12:57:21 pm
If you get a Job from Dublin to Belfast and you arrive in Belfast and offer your Sum Up to the Passenger to Pay and it is denominated in Euro can he refuse to Pay if you do not Charge in Pounds ?Can we legally accept Sterling payments .?anybody know ?Can you change the Currency on Sum Up ?and how ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 21, 2022, 11:35:33 am
If you get a Job from Dublin to Belfast and you arrive in Belfast and offer your Sum Up to the Passenger to Pay and it is denominated in Euro can he refuse to Pay if you do not Charge in Pounds ? .....
The meter reads in Euros so most unlikely a problem.
Regardless of it being a set fare, the meter must be run anyway.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 21, 2022, 11:40:09 am
..... Can we legally accept Sterling payments .?anybody know ?Can you change the Currency on Sum Up ?and how ?
As I have my Sumup reader at home charging, I tried that fer you John M and with me being not the very best at I.T. things, I could find no way to change currency using just phone and reader, maybe there is an online way ??
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on August 21, 2022, 01:10:21 pm
I don't think UK law would entitle you to get paid at all. Someone could easily go over the border and tell ya to piss off.Currency exchange will be the least of your problems.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 21, 2022, 02:22:01 pm
Another Problem .Underground Car Parks .When Customers ask to be dropped off at the underground Car Park which sometimes have entrances to main building .Some underground car parks are Blackspots no wifi connection  Twice this weekend it happened Brewery Road Appartments and the New appartments in Tallaght Village .Had to drive out with the passenger on Board to take payment by card .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Bob Shillin on August 21, 2022, 03:31:30 pm
If you get a Job from Dublin to Belfast and you arrive in Belfast and offer your Sum Up to the Passenger to Pay and it is denominated in Euro can he refuse to Pay if you do not Charge in Pounds ? .....
The meter reads in Euros so most unlikely a problem.
Regardless of it being a set fare, the meter must be run anyway.
Revolut takes both currencies.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 26, 2022, 10:00:28 am
Got a much better response to my response to their response, as below. To me it completely negates any obligation to accept card payments... something to show the Judge in the event of a prosecution anyway:

Dear Mr O'Connell

Thank you for contacting the NTA (National Transport Authority). We refer to your recent correspondence received on 17th August 2022.

Current legislation states that a passenger in a small public service vehicle shall comply with “any reasonable request made to him or her by the driver of the vehicle”, which would include seeking an alternative means of payment and the legislation also places an obligation on any passenger to “pay any fare lawfully required of him or her by the driver of the vehicle.”

It is an offence for a person not to pay the lawful fare in a small public service vehicle. If an amicable solution has not been reached between a driver and a passenger and the fare is not paid, Gardai can be contacted.

If you have any further questions please contact our Information Line on 0818 064 000.

Yours Sincerely

National Transport Authority

Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 26, 2022, 10:20:20 am
So passenger asks .Do you accept card .You reply Yes but not today .Then you are compliant you inform them you prefer Legal Tender .AN outstanding Young Member of the Oireachtas young X half Minister Troy .Was asked about asking for rent to be paid for one of his domiciles to rent in Cash .He replied he asked for Legal Tender what was the Problem .And he was correct he is entitled to be paid in folding and Coin if he wants it .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on August 26, 2022, 10:40:00 am
My thoughts exactly. Even with my somewhat limited knowledge of law I believe the SI is unconstitutional and I'll happily make that argument in any court of the land should the opportunity arise. It's perhaps interesting that the guidelines stress light touch enforcement. Perhaps they know they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they prosecuted anyone of a similar mindset to me.

I was up in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland last weekend. It was a delight to observe the "Cash Only" stickers on their taxis.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 26, 2022, 11:26:01 am
Can we ask for ID with the Card you can tap for 50 notes now .So if Bronko Whelan from the Flats found a card at the Bus Stop beside the Post Office when he was collecting his dole and used that card to get a taxi back to work and the owner stopped payment of the 23.40 fare from the Post Office to the Job Site where would we stand legally .are we covered if we do not ask for ID ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Bob Shillin on August 26, 2022, 04:18:49 pm
Can we ask for ID with the Card you can tap for 50 notes now .So if Bronko Whelan from the Flats found a card at the Bus Stop beside the Post Office when he was collecting his dole and used that card to get a taxi back to work and the owner stopped payment of the 23.40 fare from the Post Office to the Job Site where would we stand legally .are we covered if we do not ask for ID ?
I had bank cards stolen, and tapped for multiple purchases, this year. I was refunded, and the retail premises who accepted the less than €50 taps were paid.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 28, 2022, 03:28:44 pm
......... .AN outstanding Young Member of the Oireachtas young X half Minister Troy .Was asked about asking for rent to be paid for one of his domiciles to rent in Cash .He replied he asked for Legal Tender what was the Problem .And he was correct he is entitled to be paid in folding and Coin if he wants it .
That is NOT a true reflection of the case. It was actually the tenant who asked to pay in cash, and the tenant has made a sworn deposistion to that, which Mr Troy has furnished.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 28, 2022, 04:19:25 pm
......... .AN outstanding Young Member of the Oireachtas young X half Minister Troy .Was asked about asking for rent to be paid for one of his domiciles to rent in Cash .He replied he asked for Legal Tender what was the Problem .And he was correct he is entitled to be paid in folding and Coin if he wants it .
That is NOT a true reflection of the case. It was actually the tenant who asked to pay in cash, and the tenant has made a sworn deposistion to that, which Mr Troy has furnished.

AH Ken do you still play with Leggo .Tell me this .Who ratted him out in the first place  .Who told he was a landlord .Was he trying to hike up rents and did a Jurno find out about Cash transactions .Why were some of his gaffs not registered with the tennency board .Deposition me Bollox .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 28, 2022, 05:07:23 pm
......... .AN outstanding Young Member of the Oireachtas young X half Minister Troy .Was asked about asking for rent to be paid for one of his domiciles to rent in Cash .He replied he asked for Legal Tender what was the Problem .And he was correct he is entitled to be paid in folding and Coin if he wants it .
That is NOT a true reflection of the case. It was actually the tenant who asked to pay in cash, and the tenant has made a sworn deposistion to that, which Mr Troy has furnished.

AH Ken do you still play with Leggo .Tell me this .Who ratted him out in the first place  .Who told he was a landlord .Was he trying to hike up rents and did a Jurno find out about Cash transactions .Why were some of his gaffs not registered with the tennency board .Deposition me Bollox .
I dunno John M ?
Your the one that sez Innocent till proven Guilty !
Does Ian Bailey spring to mind ??

But your willing to hang out Troy on unproven assumptions ??
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 28, 2022, 05:19:43 pm
Kenneth He is a Swindler and a Crook he has admitted to it .Its the LAW that TDs MUST declare all Business Interests .He hasent done it for years .Ignorance of the LAW is no DEFENCE .

https://www.ontheditch.com/ (https://www.ontheditch.com/)
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 28, 2022, 05:36:50 pm
Kenneth He is a Swindler and a Crook he has admitted to it .Its the LAW that TDs MUST declare all Business Interests .He hasent done it for years .Ignorance of the LAW is no DEFENCE .

https://www.ontheditch.com/ (https://www.ontheditch.com/)
There were minor discrepences over what year what should be filed under and the cash transaction was explained in detail, but still he made a mistake and 'take a bow John M' he was dismissed resigned as requested.
WAS HE EVER FOUND GUILTY OF ANYTHING ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Horse on August 28, 2022, 05:59:31 pm
No smoke without fire. That's what the Christian brothers used to say as they kicked the shit out of ya.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 28, 2022, 06:21:05 pm
No smoke without fire. That's what the Christian brothers used to say as they kicked the shit out of ya.
The nun's were worse, it's been 50 odd years since I left London as a malnutritioned 7 year old kid and in those past 50 years I have never conversed or been in a contact with a nun, ever !
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 28, 2022, 06:24:52 pm
Kenneth He is a Swindler and a Crook he has admitted to it .Its the LAW that TDs MUST declare all Business Interests .He hasent done it for years .Ignorance of the LAW is no DEFENCE .

https://www.ontheditch.com/ (https://www.ontheditch.com/)
Surely you have more creditable evidence than 'ondefookinditch' ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: markmiwurdz on August 28, 2022, 06:25:57 pm
...my post's been covered in a different thread
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Shallow Hal on August 28, 2022, 06:51:57 pm
He admitted his guilt Ken,he failed to abide by the SIPO rules and not just regarding one property but various properties and it's on the Dail record that he pushed for measures to be introduced that would directly benefit him as a landlord....and all the other landlord TD's.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: watty on August 28, 2022, 07:17:39 pm
@ ken: what would happen to you if you 'forgot' to register your taxi (suitability test) 11 years in a row?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 29, 2022, 12:25:02 pm
......... .AN outstanding Young Member of the Oireachtas young X half Minister Troy .Was asked about asking for rent to be paid for one of his domiciles to rent in Cash .He replied he asked for Legal Tender what was the Problem .And he was correct he is entitled to be paid in folding and Coin if he wants it .
That is NOT a true reflection of the case. It was actually the tenant who asked to pay in cash, and the tenant has made a sworn deposistion to that, which Mr Troy has furnished.
This was the original argument which seems to have grown tits and tails in the last few days !
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 31, 2022, 01:46:50 pm
BANK OF IRELAND have an offer for taxi drivers .One off payment of 90 euro .Then 2.5% wages paid next day .Their device has a chip does not need a phone .It scans ALL the available Connections and open Wi Fi to find a connection .Man to ring is Martin Conway Dublin Number 4389491 or Email Martin.Conway @boipa.com .Bit more expensive than Sum Up but could be worth having as backup if there is no network coverage for your phone .If the Aviva had this system on Saturday they would of all got paid .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on August 31, 2022, 01:58:17 pm
Too expensive.There is absolutely no need for them to be taking 2.5% of a fare to process the payment.Greedy bastards, especially after forcing so many to go cashless.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 31, 2022, 02:01:41 pm
Too expensive.There is absolutely no need for them to be taking 2.5% of a fare to process the payment.Greedy bastards, especially after forcing so many to go cashless.

wont be long before they all charge 2.5% I am thinking of getting one but only for backup .Had trouble with Sum up myself on Saturday .No harm having another option and this one with its own chip covers all areas looks for strongest available signal .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Mytaxi007 on August 31, 2022, 02:04:16 pm
Lads I had a job to punchestown on Saturday night..house was in a black spot..asked cud I take card..no problem I said.
No data or fone signal..cudmt connect my square reader

Invited into the house by the couple to use there wif
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 31, 2022, 02:10:29 pm
BANK OF IRELAND have an offer for taxi drivers .One off payment of 90 euro .Then 2.5% wages paid next day .Their device has a chip does not need a phone .It scans ALL the available Connections and open Wi Fi to find a connection .Man to ring is Martin Conway Dublin Number 4389491 or Email Martin.Conway @boipa.com .Bit more expensive than Sum Up but could be worth having as backup if there is no network coverage for your phone .If the Aviva had this system on Saturday they would of all got paid .
If there is no network coverage fer your phone in an area, is it not likely that there will be no network coverage fer the BOI chip device ??
Fer the €90 startup and having to keep the yoke charged I wouldn't be bothered.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on August 31, 2022, 02:15:55 pm
"wont be long before they all charge 2.5% I am thinking of getting one but only for backup .Had trouble with Sum up myself on Saturday .No harm having another option and this one with its own chip covers all areas looks for strongest available signal."

Bank of Ireland must be using one of the already available phone networks.Unless it's attached to a statelite phone you're gonna lose signal with that one too.Your assumption that they'll all up their fees is inaccurate.The percentage thing is a load of bollox.It costs the exact same to move €5 as it does €5000.Why should the fee increase.BOI are robbers and always were..I wouldnt be promoting them.


 
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 31, 2022, 02:25:32 pm
Not promoting anything Merch just putting the Information out there ...https://www.boipa.com/wp-content/uploads/portable-move-3500-BOIPA.pdf (https://www.boipa.com/wp-content/uploads/portable-move-3500-BOIPA.pdf)  i have had two non connections in the last two weeks Last Saturday Sum Up was down and two sundays ago underground Car park in Tallaght Village no connection .I think this unit scans for open wi Fi but I could be wrong .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on August 31, 2022, 02:37:47 pm
Doesn't sound secure if it's jumping on random wifi connections John.

By my very rough maths 2.5% is over 30% more expensive than 1.69%.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 31, 2022, 02:52:26 pm
Doesn't sound secure if it's jumping on random wifi connections John.

By my very rough maths 2.5% is over 30% more expensive than 1.69%.

Balance the difference against a lost fare ?I would only use it for back up .
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 31, 2022, 03:00:19 pm
Doesn't sound secure if it's jumping on random wifi connections John.

By my very rough maths 2.5% is over 30% more expensive than 1.69%.
Whats with the 1.69% ?
I only pay 1.42%.
FN were offering free sumup readers to all FN drivers (even if non-ambassador) last month with a 1.39% commission.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 31, 2022, 03:02:14 pm
Doesn't sound secure if it's jumping on random wifi connections John.

By my very rough maths 2.5% is over 30% more expensive than 1.69%.

Balance the difference against a lost fare ?I would only use it for back up .
To balance the difference against lost fares you would be a long time in making up the €90 start-up fee.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: John m on August 31, 2022, 03:34:44 pm
Dont know a lot about mobile phones but what if in the Winter Wasteland of powercuts and General elections .Your nearest Vodafone mast has lost power .Might be handy to have an alternative ?
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on August 31, 2022, 03:47:58 pm
^^^^^^I don't trust them with my non freenow passengers information Belker.They're already the most expensive of my apps.No need to engage with them any more than I need to.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Belker on August 31, 2022, 05:10:14 pm
^^^^^^I don't trust them with my non freenow passengers information Belker.They're already the most expensive of my apps.No need to engage with them any more than I need to.
Ah sur' don't so, pay some other multi national even more commission fer the same service.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: mercenary for hire on August 31, 2022, 10:48:27 pm
Freenow are only dominant in Ireland becasiw of hailo.In other countries they aren't even a consideration compared to Uner/bolt

.
Title: Re: card acceptance
Post by: Rat Catcher on September 05, 2022, 11:09:32 am
The cheap clapped out Prius option is reasonably popular in London, particularly among cost-conscious riders. I hired (a slightly more expensive) Uber in London at the weekend and had to squash myself into a VW ID3... usually (or used to be) a Merc or Superb... damn enviro mentalists! I also hired a mincab from a cab office and was delighted to hear the word "Cash" stressed by the gentleman at the counter.