New-ish MG5s going cheap

[C5]

@golfer well if my last 3 Citroen C5s got to nearly 800,000 Kms without any issues just service parts etc I still have the first one the other two I sold one for 900 euro the second for 1400. I think the skoda superb will get there too, I'm not a bit worried about that. Those stories you here are cars that are not maintained or is roughly used.

[Rat Catcher]

I guess liking - or at least being prepared to - get(ting) your hands dirty from time to time has a significant bearing on maintenance costs regardless of the brand of car. I suspect being armed with no knowledge of whats going on under the bonnet would leaave one open to an element of piss taking e.g. a couple of grand for a flywheel. Stuart in Euro Clutch, Baldoyle done my MKII Clutch and Flywheel for €600 in used notes way back when there was 150,494 kilos on the clock and it was still in the car and working - but will be replaced on account of the gearbox replacement - some 9 years later with c.398,000 kilos on the clock... so don't tell me main stealers (Stuart uses OEM bits and pieces anyway) do a better job!

[C5]

@rat catcher You do all your own maintenance RC fair play, I do the same but stuff like timing belt and water pump the local garage sorts it. The dpf on the mklll is buried in the back of the engine, the Citroens have them at the front so I could disconnect it and wash it out. So I'll have to learn how to clean it while it's connected. Might need an air compressor to push the cleaner through.

[Rat Catcher]

I do most of my own but I haven't done a timing belt or clutch myself in any of my Octys as yet... until now... having got as far as ordering/acquiring the bits and pieces for the MKII. At this stage it doesn't really matter if it works out or not, I'm just speculating in or around a monkey to have a go. The MKIII is automatic so when the DSG clutch goes - if it's not scrapped before that - it'll be back to Stuart in Euro Clutch, I guess. I use Aiden up in Balrothery for timing belts or other stuff I don't fancy working on either through laziness or because they're time critical.

The way the car is driven probably has some bearing too. It seems obvious from my experience that using VAG Diesels with the Dual Mass Flywheel for taxi work is significantly heavier on the clutch/flywheel than when in private use with predominately motorway kilometerage. Also, driving within the speed limit lowers both fuel and maintenance costs!

[C5]

Mine is a 6 manual  so the clutch should last a long time, I never had a clutch go on the Citroens.

[Bob Shillin]

An accountant for your life.

[Rat Catcher]

I'd be surprised if you get anywhere close to the C5s clutch mileage out of a diesel VAG. It's usually the engine side of the dual mass flywheel that packs in. I think Watty quite accurately described it as sounding like a tractor when it happens. I recall bringing my noisy (MKII) engine in to Eoin in Howard Engineering - there's nothing Eoin doesn't know about internal combustion engines - and him quickly diagnosing the faulty flywheel/clutch by ear.

I have a somewhat different attitude to servicing than I'm guessing you have. I stick religiously to manufacturer specifications as published in the service manual with two exceptions. I generally change the pollen filter every 40-50k rather than the specified 60k as I tend to leave the fan running most of the time and I change the oil, filter and bung every 20k or c.1yr. Resetting the service interval sets it to 30K/2yrs but, in fact, it is a variable interval determined by driving style / conditions and what not. I once let mine run without resetting it (after an oil change) and it asked for an oil change after 25,xxx kilos which - adding 1,000 kilos for the advance warning would have been somewhere between 3,000 and 4.000 short of the maximum 30,000 kilos / 2 years. In any event, neither (the MKII or MKIII) have ever asked for a change before I've done them at 20K.... always using oil with the VAG 504.00 / 507.00 spec.

Now for some useful information! The MKII doesn't consume oil and never has.... but, it has no DPF. The MKIII, on the other hand, does consume oil so do check the level every month or sooner if you're doing high kilometerage, it could use as much as 1 litre over 8-10,000 kilos. The reason is the extreme temperatures necessary for DPF regeneration burns it.

That takes me nicely on to the DPF. I wouldn't bother cleaning it and the good old Italian tune up is less than useless with modern(ish) VAGs as you get nowhere near the temperatures required in the places required without the car knowing what you want it to do! There's two elements of dirt. One is Ash and the other is Soot which, by all accounts, is in fact congealed soot that ain't shifting at any temperature much below 1,000C regardless of what chemicals are thrown at it. The car burns the Ash off itself with quite frequent regeneration cycles - you may notice your cooling fan still running when you park up if you've interrupted a cycle. It's the soot value that determines when the DPF is fucked. That is, seemingly, programmed to expire at 320,000 kilos.

It'd certainly be worth investing in an OBD Eleven or a VAG DPF compatible device to monitor levels if you're considering cleaning it yourself. OBD Eleven allows forced regens (hardly necessary though given the frequency of self-scheduled regens) but has gone quite expensive with an annual sub now applicable to the "VAG Pro" plan - mine came with VAG Pro for life when I bought the dongle a good few years back for about €30. The VAG DPF app is a cheaper option which works with any OBDII reader (e.g. an ELM327) but while that doesn't facilitate forced regens it gives all the data you need to monitor the DPF. There's a fairly useless "lite" version of the app that you can use to ascertain that it's compatible with your OBDII reader following which there's a once off charge of about a tenner for the full version.

[Rat Catcher]

Oh. I should have mentioned AdBlue as well. I didn't because my MKIII predates that system. However, the brother had an Audi with AdBlue! The DPF numbers (regen frequency, soot level, etc) were all the same as my MKIII Octy. In fact, we looked at a few Audis when he bought that one and, based on the assumption that the DPF is programmed to expire at 320,000 kilos, we could calculate the precise kilometreage shown on the oddometers from the soot level. Anywaysanall, he got a DPF fault light within a few months of buying the motor so he got the breakdown service to call out. The mechanic plugged it in and told him it's a DPF fault which he could try clearing with additives combined with an Italian tune up and, failing that, could drive it back to the dealership. So he bought a bottle of stuff and we brought it out onto the M1 and performed a forced regen with the aid of my OBD Eleven device. The fault cleared for a short while and came back with all the DPF numbers within limits including the soot level being precisely as predicted relevant to kilometreage. As it was still under warranty he brought it back to the dealer who discovered something wrong with the EGR valve or an associated component. In fact the brother had found a quite detailed youtube video pointing to precisely that before or while the dealer was sorting it. I'd hazard a guess that most back street garages would sting you for a new / refurbished DPF before getting anywhere near the actual fault. Worth bearing in mind... ifn it's on Youtube it can't be too rare!

[C5]

 RC you have me worried now about the Skoda superb alot of people say stay away from french cars I've never been let down by the Citroens plus they are easy to work on.I wanted to get a Peugeot 508 estate because it's got the same gear as the C5, the C5 only comes in petrol, hybrid or EV, that doesn't work for me.I'm very familiar with the 508/C5 but the 508 estate comes with dark glass in the back and there is no option to get clear so I kept looking and this superb popped up on cars Ireland, more people talk up Skoda and down talk french cars so I thought I'd take the plunge into the vag world.

[Rat Catcher]

I wouldn't worry too much... you've made your bed now. Looking on the bright side VAGs are a lot less needy than a lot of other brands (in particular Toyota) when it comes to routine servicing. However, you'll probably ignore spec and do as much as you would to a Toyota anyway. That's not something I would necessarily criticise, particularly when you're trying to make it last twice as long as I would expect at the outside judging by your C5 kilometreage.

Essentially, there's three big ticket items - the clutch/flywheel, the timing belt and the DPF... so let's look at each of those in a bit more detail.

Going back to the MKI and MKII, taximen typically expected the clutch/flywheel to last 150k. Mine went more or less exactly at that point and when Stuart took it in he said Sachs out, Sachs in, you'll be good for another 150k. Strangely though (I took it apart last weekend on account of a gearbox issue) he put a Luk clutch in rather than the Sachs he suggested. Whether he took a Luk out or not I don't know but I guess I was lucky a Luk went in 'cos it lasted 250k - in fact is still working but will be replaced with a solid flywheel conversion on account of the gearbox issue. Anyway, I read on one or more fora that VAG use two makes of clutch/flywheel, Sachs and Luk and, of the two, Luk is considered to be superior. Maybe you are lucky enough to have a Luk in yours and/or, perhaps less likely, the durability of both have improved over the years.

Manufacturer spec for timing belt replacement for the MKIII is 210,000 kilos. However, I got a noise from the tensioner (not particularly unusual and definitely a prompt for action) around 192,000 kilos so had it replaced by Aiden in Balrothery for €330. Some say it should be done after 5 or 7 years but the manual doesn't specify a time limit for it at all. Anywaysanall, ifn you hear the tensioner (sounds like a belt flapping rather than a bearing) get it done. Reducing intervals to 160,000 would probably be prudent... that's what the spec is for the MKI and MKII.

DPF replacements aren't particular to VAGs by any means. In fact, it was Ken's Toyota DPF saga that first made me research my own DPF a bit. I've bought cars for less than it ended up costing Ken! Autdoc sell replacements for mine for c.€350 - c.€550 depending on whether you want the single canister (DPF only) or the two canisters (DPF & Cat). At that rate it's hardly worth cleaning unless it needs cleaning to get it out of limp mode (assuming it goes into limp mode) for the week it'll take to come from Poland! Anywaysanall, I don't think my yoke will get to the predicted expiration of 320,000 kilos if the EV grants are still around in 2026. However, there is an option to reset the Ash level in OBD Eleven that I'd obviously try before replacing the part(s) should I get to that kilometreage.

I've done a couple of screenshots from the VAG DPF app and OBD Eleven (below) to give you some idea of what you can expect from them. I've also included a couple of relevant links that you might find interesting. One of those suggests periodic cleaning (as you done on your C5) extends intervals between regens which would save fuel as during an active regen the car injects diesel on the exhaust stroke as well as the compression stroke to get the DPF/Exhaust burning.

Just a minor aside... in my last post on DPF soot/ash levels I mixed up the soot and ash. It's the ash that congeals and eventually kills the DPF not the soot!

VAG DPF app screenshot:



OBD Eleven Screenshot:




Buying a VAG DPF compatible device (the brother managed to buy one that wasn't compatible)

https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/dpf-diesel-particulate-filter/vag-dpf-vw-which-obd2-ii-elm327-dongle-should-i-use-bluetooth-wifi

DPF discussion... Clutch/flywheel gets a mention too!

https://www.yetiownersclub.co.uk/threads/understanding-vag-dpf-app.8227/

[Rat Catcher]

You've got me worrying now!

Looking at the VAG DPF screenshot above it seems my DPF soot level is at 33% despite the last regen being 3 kilos ago. That can't be good. I'm half tempted to do something I've never done before i.e. add some stuff to the diesel. I've never put anything other than bog standard EN590 diesel (as per manufacturer specs) in any my Octy diesel tanks. What a conundrum!

[C5]

I used the high grade circle k diesel and high grade Total oil and Bosch filters and drove 70 km at 100kph mixed with lower speeds in the C5  maybe that's why I've never had a dpf problem in them. The dpf in the mk111 superb is at the back of the engine totally impractical, the subframe and front right suspension and driveshaft has to come out according to a YouTube vid I watched. So we will see if what I was doing on the C5 works on the superb.

[Panel]

The 1.6HDi injun is a piece of piss to work on.

The dpf soot sensor is upstream on the exhaust, open the bonnet and it’s looking right back at ya. 17mm spanner ifn I recall.

The dpf light has illuminated 3 times now, when it does unbolt the soot sensor and fuck a bottle of this stuff into
It ; https://www.micksgarage.com/d/fuel-additives/products/2099844/jlm-diesel-particulate-filter-dpf-cleaner-375ml?loc=ie&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADo8r0MzR-SOLMZYrI3djqA6WAfGO&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2c28ptjZiAMVSZdQBh0NuQNNEAQYASABEgIcTvD_BwE

Then bring it on a regen and it’s grand.

[Rat Catcher]

Removing the subframe is quite a big job. You're supposed to replace all the bolts and get the chassis realigned every time it's done... which woulda been never before these poxy DPFs entered the equation!

In any event, definitely overkill if just to clean the DPF. Save the few notes on the premium diesel and the cleaning agents and you'll probably have twice the cost of a new DPF when it packs in! However, there probably is some benefit to cleaning it. The following video shows a far more practical option IMO:

https://youtu.be/8uqFZLKKMfs?feature=shared

I might give that a go on my own in due course. In fact my latest reading disproves my previous theory that one could calculate the kilometreage from the Ash level. The reading before that was 50.08g/80.00g at 200,035 kilos which is bang on the formula I had previously observed (320,000 / 80 * 50.08 = 200,320)... as were several Audis I looked at with the brother a few years back so the relatively large deviation at this juncture is definitely cause for concern. 320,000 / 80 * 62.65 = 250,600 yet the actual kilometreage is 242,901. I know it hasn't been clocked so the increased ash accumulation must have a cause... unless it's just programmed to speed up as it gets near the end of it's life. It'd certainly be interesting to see what (if any) effect cleaning has on the numbers.

There is an aerosol version of the one Panel recommends, as follows:

https://www.micksgarage.com/d/fuel-additives/products/2489506/jlm-diesel-dpf-spray?loc=ie

... but I might try this one first... next time I'm ordering bits and pieces from Autodoc:

https://www.auto-doc.ie/ma-profesional/15078158

[C5]

O'Riley s autos on YouTube has a lot of vids on dpf problems and he explains clearly how to get around problems. An Irish fella working in England. There was one problem that a lot of mechanics couldn't solve with one car and he found that it was the outside temperature sensor was faulty and it's connected to the regen of the dpf. He goes into detail on what to do.