Strike

[Rat Catcher]

No. As I've already stated it's nothing to do with me and I won't be participating but I will withdraw my service for at least the duration of the protest in support. I post the legal position. IIRC the waiver scheme was introduced by NTA on foot of it's reading of contract law.

At the moment Uber pays drivers more than it charges riders and it also offers riders assurance that they will not be charged more than the metered fare. However, it is the first line of it's terms and conditions that ought to be of most concern to riders I.e. they are required to waive their right to have the fare calculated by the taximeter. Subsequent comfort guarantees and concessions are stated to be "notwithstanding".

[Rat Catcher]

Just for clarity, I have no problem with Uber offering any amount for any job, erm. As you stated it's simple enough men can either accept or reject any offer and may choose which firms they want to work for and which firms they don't want to work for.

My main concern is Uber et al manipulating the market to eradicate competition. NTA has a statutory obligation to promote competition so it must step in to prevent below cost selling being used as a means to monopolise the market. It should be mindful that Uber's market manipulation methodologies will evolve if and when it gains sufficient control of the market. The men protesting have called for proper regulation of licensed dispatch operators which is a perfectly reasonable demand IMO.

I appreciate that many men won't support the protest for various reasons and that is their right. Some drivers might find they can earn more by charging lower fares as their productivity is increased through reducing/eliminating dead mileage and downtime. Interestingly, SB reported that he made more money in his Checkers days charging rates lower than bus fares than he does now charging the maximum amount permitted by law as calculated by the taximeter... and that was without access to bus lanes. However, he wasn't paying extortionate rates of commission and that is key to identifying an obvious requirement to limit the amounts licensed dispatch operators may charge drivers through a maximum prices order.

[watty]

As I've said already, if you give 'mates rates' to your friends, you're giving a discount.  The question is where does one draw the line?

The tricky part would be banning below cost selling.  Uber have 1 foot here and the other in the Netherlands.  They could easily manipulate their accounts to keep doing what they're doing.  Afterall, Ireland's economic success is mostly based on letting the American multinationals 'rest their money' in their Irish bank accounts so they pay less tax worldwide.



I'll just throw this in here for reference: (CNBC 2021) [USA] Uber and Lyft rides are more expensive than ever because of a driver shortage

The cost of a ride from a ride-sharing app like Uber  or Lyft  increased 92% between January 2018 and July 2021, according to Rakuten Intelligence. Many riders have also noticed increased wait times for rides. The main reason is a shortage of drivers.

... But for those who are still relying on ride-sharing platforms to make a living, the companies are not offering enough.  In fact, many drivers switched to food delivery, like Chad Polenz, creator of Chad The Gig Economist

... The driver shortage calls into question whether the ride-sharing business model is sustainable. Neither company has ever shown sustained profits, and instead have shown staggering losses compared with most other publicly traded companies. Uber lost $6.77 billion last year, and $8.51 billion in 2019, the last full year before the pandemic. Lyft lost $1.75 billion last year and $2.60 billion in 2019, although last quarter it was profitable for the first time on an adjusted EBITDA basis, which ignores costs like stock-based compensation and taxes.

Profitability was a problem for these companies even before the pandemic, when Uber and Lyft were rapidly growing. Back then, these ride-share companies were subsidizing the price of rides with promotions, discounts, and even just lowering the cost of rides to bring in new customers. So the capital raised by these companies, in part, went to making rides more affordable, and making sure drivers were happy with their compensation. Now that Lyft and Uber are public companies, they have to worry more about making a profit.

Ultimately, the apps are public companies who answer to their shareholders and to hell with the public good.   The NTA would do well to look across the Atlantic for a history lesson.  So-called competition might deliver lower prices for passengers for a few years but it will become uneconomical for drivers and quality standards will drop.

And then once the apps become the dominant price-makers, the NTA will lose control and prices will massively increase as apps strive to make their quarterly targets for their American shareholders.

One could even point out the public bus industry.  In the NTA's race to the bottom, the bus companies have to import drivers from South Africa and run ad campaigns to get women to work part-time.  The NTA are the price-makers and are increasing fares despite the Govt's wish to increase people using public transport.

[Octavia1]

As I've said already, if you give 'mates rates' to your friends, you're giving a discount.  The question is where does one draw the line?

The tricky part would be banning below cost selling.  Uber have 1 foot here and the other in the Netherlands.  They could easily manipulate their accounts to keep doing what they're doing.  Afterall, Ireland's economic success is mostly based on letting the American multinationals 'rest their money' in their Irish bank accounts so they pay less tax worldwide.



I'll just throw this in here for reference: (CNBC 2021) [USA] Uber and Lyft rides are more expensive than ever because of a driver shortage

The cost of a ride from a ride-sharing app like Uber  or Lyft  increased 92% between January 2018 and July 2021, according to Rakuten Intelligence. Many riders have also noticed increased wait times for rides. The main reason is a shortage of drivers.

... But for those who are still relying on ride-sharing platforms to make a living, the companies are not offering enough.  In fact, many drivers switched to food delivery, like Chad Polenz, creator of Chad The Gig Economist

... The driver shortage calls into question whether the ride-sharing business model is sustainable. Neither company has ever shown sustained profits, and instead have shown staggering losses compared with most other publicly traded companies. Uber lost $6.77 billion last year, and $8.51 billion in 2019, the last full year before the pandemic. Lyft lost $1.75 billion last year and $2.60 billion in 2019, although last quarter it was profitable for the first time on an adjusted EBITDA basis, which ignores costs like stock-based compensation and taxes.

Profitability was a problem for these companies even before the pandemic, when Uber and Lyft were rapidly growing. Back then, these ride-share companies were subsidizing the price of rides with promotions, discounts, and even just lowering the cost of rides to bring in new customers. So the capital raised by these companies, in part, went to making rides more affordable, and making sure drivers were happy with their compensation. Now that Lyft and Uber are public companies, they have to worry more about making a profit.

Ultimately, the apps are public companies who answer to their shareholders and to hell with the public good.   The NTA would do well to look across the Atlantic for a history lesson.  So-called competition might deliver lower prices for passengers for a few years but it will become uneconomical for drivers and quality standards will drop.

And then once the apps become the dominant price-makers, the NTA will lose control and prices will massively increase as apps strive to make their quarterly targets for their American shareholders.

One could even point out the public bus industry.  In the NTA's race to the bottom, the bus companies have to import drivers from South Africa and run ad campaigns to get women to work part-time.  The NTA are the price-makers and are increasing fares despite the Govt's wish to increase people using public transport.

Smart post watty .....  wat some seem to forget is that  uber isnt here for  taxis .... its here to replace them

[John m]

There are a Few TAXi Apps .Gala and Tap A Taxi are two I know .What are Free Now and Uber and Bolt .Are they actually TAXI apps or a digital platform where people can book services like Food delivery hire  a boat or scooter or city bike ? My contention is they are BOOKING Apps (Service Providers ) All charge VAT on the service they provide .I believe their business model is to spend big on Advertising internationally to build a brand where people will book their required service Food or Taxi with the Platform .Now The Booking Platform Free now/Uber /Bolt will sell on the transport contract in our case to Licenced Taxi drivers as you need to hold a PSV to carry passengers for reward in Ireland .If they could use Private motorists (rideshare ) like they do in the US they would do it .

 So as Independent business Owners/operators we have multiple options .Work with the Booking platforms (Pay the ransom ) Work off the ranks /streets .Have private clients .Like I said a lot of the lads now vilifying the Booking platforms are the very same drivers who gave them hundreds of Millions in start up subsidies by not charging the Pick up Charge for Years or giving Hospitality back handers for years to help these booking Platforms build their brands and capture what use to be free to us taxi fares .The same people who sped past you to grab the next job to maintain their Ambassador or Gold /Silver or Bronze Status .Now they are getting fucked over by the beast they created bitten by their own Dog and as Corporal Clinger in Dads army says They Dont Like it Up EM " Yes I know it wasent Corporal Clinger.

Many a fella went to a Youth Club Disco looking for a dance 30 years later ended up with a Divorce .The same thing happened here Lads thought the Apps were here to look after them so they embraced them now they own your WORK and you gave it to them .

I would bet a few quid if anybody turns up to this thing most of the Cars like the ones who parked along the Side of the Park will be branded Free Now or UBER .The people most effected by the Apps shafting them are the very men who built them .

I wont be supporting this protest No agenda who is behind it ? What document are the hoping to hand in to NTA who will represent the roadblock .?

[SalubriousEd]

This protest will have a net negative impact i fear, easiest way to protest is to just turn off uber and freenow, use media to promote tap a taxi for people to use while the rip off apps are turned off, we get the double impact of hurting the apps while boosting tap a taxi. Unfortunately half of us are too stupid/greedy to do it

[John m]

This protest will have a net negative impact i fear, easiest way to protest is to just turn off uber and freenow, use media to promote tap a taxi for people to use while the rip off apps are turned off, we get the double impact of hurting the apps while boosting tap a taxi. Unfortunately half of us are too stupid/greedy to do it

Exactly Ed we are Independent Business Owners .There are options .Like you said Tap and No Im not on it I dont support any of the apps. I have UBER installed use it on return journeys when I go out of my patch to find work . Dont use Free Now 25% commission ? Dont use Bolt or Helo not helping to build another monster to take My free to us Work .

[watty]

There are a Few TAXi Apps .Gala and Tap A Taxi are two I know .What are Free Now and Uber and Bolt .Are they actually TAXI apps or a digital platform where people can book services like Food delivery hire  a boat or scooter or city bike ? My contention is they are BOOKING Apps (Service Providers ) All charge VAT on the service they provide .I believe their business model is to spend big on Advertising internationally to build a brand where people will book their required service Food or Taxi with the Platform .Now The Booking Platform Free now/Uber /Bolt will sell on the transport contract in our case to Licenced Taxi drivers as you need to hold a PSV to carry passengers for reward in Ireland .If they could use Private motorists (rideshare ) like they do in the US they would do it .

That was FreeNow's aim before they sold to Lyft.  To be *the* transport app.  You'd use their app to rent a bicycle to the bus stop, their app to get on the bus, then their app to get a taxi in town etc etc..

This protest will have a net negative impact i fear, easiest way to protest is to just turn off uber and freenow, use media to promote tap a taxi for people to use while the rip off apps are turned off, we get the double impact of hurting the apps while boosting tap a taxi. Unfortunately half of us are too stupid/greedy to do it

+1

[Rat Catcher]

As I've said already, if you give 'mates rates' to your friends, you're giving a discount.  The question is where does one draw the line?

The tricky part would be banning below cost selling.  Uber have 1 foot here and the other in the Netherlands.  They could easily manipulate their accounts to keep doing what they're doing.  Afterall, Ireland's economic success is mostly based on letting the American multinationals 'rest their money' in their Irish bank accounts so they pay less tax worldwide.

One ought to draw the line at a 15 mile radius from the GPO. The meter is a relatively new concept beyond that boundary and one very many clients passionately dislike. If one were to force the men outside of the big cities to charge the current maximum fare permitted by law as calculated by the Dublin centric taximeter a lot of those men and the firms they work for would lose a lot of work, forcing some out of business and others to commute in to the cities to compete for work where the clients are used to paying metered fares and, indeed, where most clients will have actually flagged down a taxi on the street or hired a taxi at a taxi stand so actually know how disgustingly low fares are when PUC and base fees aren't a factor. I done a local from the Omni rank up above in Santry the week before last... €7 it was... with queuing time, loading and unloading shopping time that's 20 minutes work... for a poxy €7 before expenses charging maximum fare permitted by law as calculated by the Dublin centric taximeter.... yet the same maximum fare permitted by law as calculated by the Dublin centric taximeter pays me €72 for a 32 minute run from Stamullen to DAP or €83 for a 33 minute run from Balbriggan to D1, both including run in, excluding commission and other expenses.

I guess in rural areas the majority of your clients are your friends and neighbours but what about firms like Roy's Ireland By Taxi - of which there are quite a few. Of course they will have some repeat clients and more through recommendations / word of mouth but, for the most part, they are serving clients with whom they have no personal relationship. Putting those firms out of business would, similarly, force those men into competing for work in the big cities.

In any event, it seems highly unlikely that NTA will introduce a minimum national fare at a level that would be counter productive or that it will abolish the national maximum rate in favour of returning to allowing local firms and local authorities set their own (metered) rates appropriate to local markets.

NTA can attach any conditions it deems appropriate to Dispatch Operator licences. The question, I guess, is whether the likes of Uber actually need a licence. They could argue that they are no different to WhatsApp which clearly can connect riders with licensed (or more commonly unlicensed as far as WhatsApp is concerned) drivers without holding any licence. However, Uber has proved to be keen on playing along with licensing authorities in other markets e.g. in the UK it is required to operate from within the jurisdictions within which it is licensed to facilitate audit and regulatory control. Of course, that is another question that ought to be being asked... what jurisdiction has NTA got in Amsterdam and when did it last audit Uber B.V., Amsterdam?

[Rat Catcher]

This protest will have a net negative impact i fear, easiest way to protest is to just turn off uber and freenow, use media to promote tap a taxi for people to use while the rip off apps are turned off, we get the double impact of hurting the apps while boosting tap a taxi. Unfortunately half of us are too stupid/greedy to do it

Exactly Ed we are Independent Business Owners .There are options .Like you said Tap and No Im not on it I dont support any of the apps. I have UBER installed use it on return journeys when I go out of my patch to find work . Dont use Free Now 25% commission ? Dont use Bolt or Helo not helping to build another monster to take My free to us Work .

Isn't that where Uber et al have revolutionised the trade. You're no longer restricted to your patch, be that the patch within which you hold a licence to ply or stand for hire, the patch your traditional base serves or merely the patch you like working. With Uber you have a 26 county patch which will become a 32 county patch as soon as our law chuckys.

Whether you choose to increase your productivity by working beyond your patch just following the black line in counties with which you are not familiar or just use it to get you back to your patch, you are increasing your productivity. It's effectively taking what the hackney firms done in specialised areas prior to entry liberalisation and expending that to a national scale. As SB mentioned on another thread he was earning more driving folk around the northside suburbs for bus fare back in his Checkers days than he now earns in his fully licensed taxi charging the maximum amount permitted by law as calculated by the Dublin centric taximeter.

Of course, increasing your productivity and that of a significant minority of your colleagues/competitors effectively increases supply. Without getting too technical, what happens in a market when you increase supply is that the price equilibrium point of supply and demand shifts in a downward direction i.e. the point at which maximum aggregate fare income is achieved is at a lower fare than it was before you increased supply. I appreciate that's well beyond the scope of our discussions but it is nonetheless something that the big multinational firms will be well acquainted with.

[Rat Catcher]

This protest will have a net negative impact i fear, easiest way to protest is to just turn off uber and freenow, use media to promote tap a taxi for people to use while the rip off apps are turned off, we get the double impact of hurting the apps while boosting tap a taxi. Unfortunately half of us are too stupid/greedy to do it

There would be no Tap without the last protest so, who knows, this one (if supported by drivers) might deliver some other unexpected or unintended benefit. MMW astutely noted on another thread that it's primarily drivers who are forced to pay extortionate rates to rent their taxi plates who are covering the fixed fares for Uber.  The new union behind this protest is advocating a level playing field so maybe that's an area NTA can look at... after all the market was supposedly deregulated back in 1999.

To be fair, the tremendous success story that is Tap has solved the problem of fixed fares up above in Dublin to some extent. I done a few hours up above in Dublin last Saturday afternoon and 78% of my work was for Tap hence I'd suggest there is very little need for any driver to work for any of the commercial firms as far as the big cities are concerned. It is also noteworthy that Tap has solved the problem of Free Now (in particular) charging huge surge fees as reported by a rock star and a TV personality. Tap drivers never charge more than the maximum amount permitted by law as calculated by the Dublin centric taximeter.

[Taxi driver42]

Are u on tap
Is their work

[Rat Catcher]

Yes and Yes.

[John m]

Whos going to the Protest ? Wont be going but wont be working .I see now on tinternet somebody asking Trinity College if they gave Free Now permission to use their image on an advert ..That will undoubtedly sort out the issue of 25% commission .

[Dr. Martin Gooter Bling]

whos striking.and whats the strike about.