Talk To Joe

[Rat Catcher]

I was listening to Liveline while I was out and about sorting out wiring/licensing/etc over the last couple of days... all about gambling. I wasn't able to call as I either had my hands full or was driving but I've sent them an email just now... maybe they'll let me have a go today or mention the issues raised:


Hi,

I was listening to Liveline yesterday and on Tuesday on the subject of gambling. I know you touched on regulation of the industry to some extent but I’m not sure that the inadequacy of regulation in Ireland has been fully addressed.

It is this aspect that interests me. Bookmakers are supposed to be licensed to make a book and provide a service to (intending) punters. However, in reality, they are nothing more than parasites. If an account is not performing to their satisfaction they simply close it or restrict it to the point of ridicule. To illustrate this point I have attached two screenshots:

Screenshot 1 shows me logged in to my paddypower account attempting to place a bet of €50 on the favourite in the 13:45 race at Southwell this afternoon. This is a completely random selection purely for illustrative purposes. You will note the message on screen states “The maximum stake for this selection is €17.92. If you want to stake above this please contact us...” - Just to make it clear, I have not applied any restrictions to my account, the restriction is enforced by the bookmaker to get rid of customers who don’t lose enough.

Screenshot 2 shows the result of me attempting to stake €10 on the same horse with Boylesports. The message reads “Our automatic risk controls have rejected your bet…”

What I want to ask is

(1) why aren’t bookmakers required under their licensing terms and conditions to provide the service they are licensed to provide. As an analogy, I drive a taxi for a living and I am obliged (within reason) to accept any fare up to a distance of 30km!

(2) when I ask these firms for their licence details they give an offshore licence held in Gibraltar or Malta and tell me that is the licence they use to conduct business with me yet they are legally required to (and do) hold Irish licences.

T&Cs for paddy powers reads:
PPB Counterparty Services Limited, having its registered address at Triq il-Kappillan Mifsud, St. Venera, SVR 1851, MALTA, is licensed and regulated by the Malta Gaming Authority under Licence Number MGA/CRP/131/2006 (issued on 01 August 2018).
For customers in the UK, PPB Entertainment Limited, PPB Counterparty Services Limited, PPB Games Limited and PPB GE Limited are licensed and regulated by the Gambling Commission.

T&Cs for Boylesports reads:
BoyleSports is operated by BoyleSports (Gibraltar) Limited, company number 112469, of registered address Suite 2B, 143 Main Street, GX11 1AA Gibraltar. BoyleSports is licensed and regulated by the Gambling Commission (Licence No 000-039469-R-319383-001) for customers in Great Britain, and licensed by the Government of Gibraltar and regulated by the Gibraltar Gambling Commissioner (RGL 083 & 084) for all other customers.

In both cases they are regulated in the UK for UK customers but not in Ireland for Irish customers… yet they are Irish firms!

Rant over!

Best Regards,

Stephen O’Connell
[number removed]

[The Liffey Lip]

Why is it you refuse to walk to the Bookies, Rats? The online service is primarily for alcos and shut-ins.........and you're hardly both.

[Shallowhal]

Why is it you refuse to walk to the Bookies, Rats? The online service is primarily for alcos and shut-ins.........and you're hardly both.

He's a prepper!!

[Belker]

You didn't put a whole lot of thought in to that Stephen, as you said yourself at the end it was a 'Rant'.
The use of the word "Parasite" in sentence 4 insured me that it was indeed a Rant rather than a serious letter.

Your points are Just, but the letter was poor, I know you well enough to know that you can do a lot better.

And Yes if they have a betting licence regardless of where it is, then you have the right to object to their licence.
Also the MD/CEO needs a Suitability of Personal Fitness licence to operate as a bookmaker and you can object to that too.

It might not get ya anywhere, but a few well scripted emails will surely Ruffle a few Feathers !

[Belker]

And before ya go all 'Snow White' on us, remember who you are
and what game you were playing.

[stonethecrows]

Is it true Bookies done legally have to pay out on winners, I'm led to believe its a "Gentleman's Agreement" and as such they can withhold payment if they see fit !

[Shallowhal]

Is it true Bookies done legally have to pay out on winners, I'm led to believe its a "Gentleman's Agreement" and as such they can withhold payment if they see fit !

I believe so...and they have done exactly that in the past.

[Rat Catcher]

That's true, STC. Gambling debts aren't legally enforceable in the UK or ROI.

When I was pulling a small but consistent profit out of backing horses on a daily basis the key was being able to shop around, LL. Sure, I could walk to paddy powers or Boyles but I couldn't walk to Betfair Sportsbook, Bet365, William Hill, Coral, etc, etc... However, I had a PP shop manager in the car a while back and he told me you wouldn't get away with not losing enough in the shops for too long either. Apparently the "security team" monitor all the shops over CCTV and frequently call to instruct the manager to restrict bets, etc...

[Belker]

Is it true Bookies done legally have to pay out on winners, I'm led to believe its a "Gentleman's Agreement" and as such they can withhold payment if they see fit !

The Law states that Gambling Debts are not recoverable by law.
However if a Bookie refuses to pay out on a winning bet then the customer may object to his Bookie licence being renewed.
If a customer refuses to pay a gambling debt then the Bookie will usually Ban him and pass on his details to other Bookies.

[Rat Catcher]

Good luck with objecting to licences in Gibraltar and Malta...

[Belker]

.........However, I had a PP shop manager in the car a while back and he told me you wouldn't get away with not losing enough in the shops for too long either. Apparently the "security team" monitor all the shops over CCTV and frequently call to instruct the manager to restrict bets, etc...

Ya don't need CCTV, we had back in the day what was called "An 'Over-Score' system" where every bet/docket over a Score or every Pay-out over Fifty was sent to H.Q. the next day, whomever was in charge would breeze through all these bets daily and it was pretty easy to see the hand writing and spot those who were deemed..... 'Undesirable'.

I remember talking to young Terry on a flight to London one morning fer a Bookmakers show and him telling me; "I closed over a Hundred accounts last week and some of them had never Won a Penny, but they beat the odds, so I closed em all".

[Rat Catcher]

Betfred/Totesport done that on me... went through my P/L with the firm when my account was closed as it amounted to nothing but I had taken some very decent prices compared to SP.

[Belker]

Good luck with objecting to licences in Gibraltar and Malta...

If I had a strong enough case then Yes I would take it on.

But it would need to be a lot stronger case than yours,
you played the odds and made a few quid, they copped
on and barred you.
I wonder how your betting history is gonna look in front
of a gaming authority ? While you claim 'Snow White' !

[Rat Catcher]

So they're licensed parasites... winning is against the rules?

[stonethecrows]

Correct a brother of mine who gambles quite BIG was barred from some bookies for winning too much, although I've no doubt he gave it all back somewhere along the line.